RuneScape Forum Archive | Saradomin and the Lore Corner

Padomenes

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Hguoh said :
Is it just me, or are these answers kind of contradictory.

Mewzard said :
Sky Jexel said:
"6. Saradomin claims after Sliske's Endgame that he will create a utopia for all races. Would he strive to create a society where races such as demons or Mahjarrat could live in peace with humans?

Yes. Why would he discriminate over race?"

"Sky Jexel said:
7. What exactly was the sentient race other than the icyene that was native to New Domina"

It was very very bad. The darkness to the icyene's light, the devils to their angels. They could not be reasoned with; to pursue peace and diplomacy would be the icyene's undoing. The only option was to purge the corruption to prevent it from spreading."

Hey, he doesn't discriminate over race, but every member of that other race was impossible to incorporate into his empire.

I get that it's supposed to be him judging them based on their actions (though I question how that applies to every last member (*cough*children*cough*) of a race that is presumably sentient), but if a being's range of behavior is predetermined by their race it kind of blurs the line between discriminating by race and discriminating by behavior. And if their range of behavior isn't predetermined by race, killing absolutely all of them off/reducing their population below what can sustain the species is kind of extreme/unnecessary/wasteful.

Or am I just missing something? You say we should just let them all kill and destroy everything?

You know pest control or hunting can sometimes lead to an extinction of a species even without the intention of "genocide" but purely protection? A virus or the bubonic plague is a lifeform or "race". Would it be "immoral" to try to kill them off then or to destroy a village of hostile cannibals on an island who frequently raid your colony to kill + eat its settlers?

23-Jan-2017 14:55:35 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2017 16:14:11 by Padomenes

Padomenes

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Imagine

Some guy: "But these people are a bunch of CANNIBALS. They can't comprehend diplomacy, the last diplomat we sent got speared and eaten. They want to eat us and continue to raid our colonies killing everybody if we don't strike back to stop the threat."

Garlandia or supporter would be: "Stop fighting them they are just different and misunderstood, you are a hateful genocidal bigot!!!!! Why can't we live side by side in peace......?!! I am not going and I will make an example here so others will follow, none will listen to you anymore!"

23-Jan-2017 15:18:15 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2017 15:24:17 by Padomenes

Hguoh

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Padomenes said :
You we should just let them all kill and destroy everything?

Ooh, a straw man. Please Pads, point to where I said that he should have just let them kill everybody and destroy everything. I have a feeling that I'll be waiting for quite a long while.

Padomenes said :
You know pest control or hunting can sometimes lead to an extinction of a species even without the intention of "genocide" but purely protection? A virus or the bubonic plague is a lifeform or "race". Would it be "immoral" to try to kill them off then or to destroy a village of hostile cannibals on an island who frequently raid your colony to kill + eat its settlers?

Except, you know, that we literally just got an answer from Mod Stu that Mewzard posted in this very thread that describes what happened as pretty darn deliberate and not accidental. In other words, it was the deliberate killing of a large group of people of a particular species (which is the definition of genocide). You can argue as to whether or not it was justified, but that really doesn't change what it is.

And really? Trying to argue that the bubonic plague is a race?

On the cannibal bit, killing off the adults is fine (they chose to live and behave as cannibals). Attacking and slaughtering the children is entirely immoral because (as children) they didn't get to choose how they were being raised and can be taught to act differently and why what their parents did is wrong.

23-Jan-2017 15:35:57 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2017 16:03:00 by Hguoh

Hguoh

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*Sigh* But I get your point. Here's the thing though, you seem to have completely missed mine. So I'll try to be as clear as possible:

We have 2 seemingly conflicting answers to two separate questions. One states that Saradomin would not discriminate over what races would be included in his utopia. The next, however, states that he absolutely had to exterminate a sentient race to preserve his people.

If we assume both answers are accurate, then Saradomin must have been judging them based on their behavior/actions when deciding to eradicate them. However if one can accurately judge an entire race to all act that way, what then is the difference between judging by race and judging by behavior?

If we subscribe to the notion that an individual's actions are limited by their race, then there is no difference between judging by race and judging by action as the latter will lead to the former.

If we subscribe to the notion that an individual's actions are not limited by their race, then Saradomin's eradication of their entire race is incredibly excessive.

23-Jan-2017 15:38:13

Raleirosen

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The fact that they've reiterated the irredeemability of this devil race leads me to believe that they weren't sentient, or were otherwise incapable of independent thought. Sixth age story content has been pretty big on moral grey areas, so for this to be an instance of 100% evil it has to be something extraordinary.

There's also the explicit "plague/swarm" analogy, so... Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

23-Jan-2017 15:38:43 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2017 15:48:59 by Raleirosen

Apr

2023

SixOfOne

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In my mind this is a good bit of lore for Saradomin. While there is contradiction between the quotes the fact that it is specifically mentioned that they couldn't be reasoned with is the key thing here. Saradomin is accepting of every race in what he considers to be his utopian society, providing that they are able to reason and co-exist. The Jmods are almost describing this other race as something like the Tyranids from 40k. In that situation, there is no other option if the Iycene want to survive, so it is a case of kill or be killed.

Furthermore, this sheds more light on the situation with Garlandia. Yes, what Saradomin did to her was pretty horrible. But, he wanted the Icyene to survive and presumably had good intentions regarding the species. So, he did what had to be done. Saradomin is morally grey, but isn't as bad as some people here want to believe. At least in my opinion. I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes

23-Jan-2017 15:52:53 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2017 15:53:04 by SixOfOne

Hguoh

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Raleirosen said :
Snip

I'd be inclined to agree, but the question asks, 'What exactly was the sentient race other than the icyene that was native to New Domina'?

The fact that the mod doesn't make any correction to that assumption makes me quite worried that they do intend for the race to have been sentient.

And, honestly, the ways for that to work and not make Saradomin out to be an absolute twat are fairly limited.

For one, the race, whilst native to New Domina, can't have been around for too long as it would have otherwise eradicated or was eradicating them before Saradomin got to the plane (the idea that the race had to be exterminated falls flat if they had managed coexistence for an extended period of time prior to Saradomin's arrival).

For two, the race's very presence would basically have to be bad for the Icyene. I don't mean them acting such that they purposefully hurt the Icyene (as again, that really blurs the whole doesn't discriminate by race line). I mean them simply existing nearby causes the Icyene harm (think of it like a race that communicates via microwaves trying to live near humans or a race that preys upon yours (without the gray area vampires have of not needing to kill their prey)). It's important that this be something this particular race can't really control (otherwise there's no reason they couldn't be reasoned with that doesn't, again, seriously blur the discrimination by race vs discrimination by action line).

I guess it could be something like the curse that turned the dwarves into chaos dwarves without the handy escape routes of godly protection and cutting off their magic.

23-Jan-2017 16:00:50

Aug

2023

William Witt

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Hey, Mewzard! I hope you don't mind, but I ripped that tweet from your thread to put on my ever-living JMod Quotes thread (for future reference). I credited you. Of course, I kind of did the same thing with the thread's original batch of quotes...

The Asgarnian ale must flow.

23-Jan-2017 16:38:26

Raleirosen

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Hguoh said :
For two, the race's very presence would basically have to be bad for the Icyene. I don't mean them acting such that they purposefully hurt the Icyene (as again, that really blurs the whole doesn't discriminate by race line). I mean them simply existing nearby causes the Icyene harm (think of it like a race that communicates via microwaves trying to live near humans or a race that preys upon yours (without the gray area vampires have of not needing to kill their prey)). It's important that this be something this particular race can't really control (otherwise there's no reason they couldn't be reasoned with that doesn't, again, seriously blur the discrimination by race vs discrimination by action line). If it was some condition like that then I don't see why mass deportation wouldn't have worked.

make new domina great again

Hguoh said :
I guess it could be something like the curse that turned the dwarves into chaos dwarves without the handy escape routes of godly protection and cutting off their magic. This seems more likely; perhaps the race was sentient to begin with, but were irrevocably corrupted/brainwashed in some way. Xau-Tak perhaps?

Another possibility is that these devils just had a super special relationship with the icyene; they were the yin to their yang (or something) and the nature of that relationship made conflict totally inevitable, somehow. Or maybe the devils could only digest fried icyene wings, who knows. Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

23-Jan-2017 16:40:47 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2017 16:43:59 by Raleirosen

Hazeel

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I...have trouble buying it honestly. Vanescula was a spoiled brat who would rather enslave others and make the world suffer than make the tiny bit of effort to survive on her own...yet we managed to end it peacefully--albeit with a gun to her head. Bandos was a sociopath who wanted destruction for its own sake...and yet he started to question himself and could have been turned around (if only a little effort was put in) within two weeks. If peace can be made with them, I can't imagine who it couldn't be made with--let alone an entire race. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

23-Jan-2017 17:53:42

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