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Dennorak
Jul Member 2020

Dennorak

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IF Saradomin did abandon the humans, I don't think he would have abandoned every last one of them, he probably would have brought some with him.
Zamorakian Lorehound, Flame of Chaos member, Bilrach enthusiast

23-May-2014 21:02:37

Raxxess

Raxxess

Posts: 2,236 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Dennorak said :
IF Saradomin did abandon the humans, I don't think he would have abandoned every last one of them, he probably would have brought some with him.

To be honest it just didn't happen lol. I mean to put it plainly abandoning is an extremely negative scenario it would be saying Saradomin just didn't care about them anymore. But Saradomin was communicating with the temple knights while he was in New Domina, and obviously he didn't abandon the Icyene when he went to Gielinor. I think what happened here is people are trying to pass opinion as canon which is why this debate kind of sprang up. Sure you can say if saradomin left a world in someone's opinion but that doesn't make it fact.

And it just doesn't fit at all Saradomin literally bought followers the Saragorak from Bandos. So it doesn't really go with his character to just abandon people that followed him.

And lastly this is an area that has little to no lore on it.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

23-May-2014 21:09:41 - Last edited on 23-May-2014 21:11:11 by Raxxess

Balustan

Balustan

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Saradomin didn't care about them back then. He was young and it is in the past. He has not repeated the incident.

Also you use the Temple Knights who are not part of the humans who he abandoned. The abandonment was long before he arrived on Gielinor. He abandoned them for more useful races and then reconnected with them on Gielinor.

Again divination livestream.

He never brought any humans with him we know this. Sorry but quite frankly one negative thing which I don't even view as that bad given when it happened and how he has learned from it and which fits in with many other pieces of content.

Before you start with the whole Balustan just wants Saradomin to have more negatives again, as I have pointed out elsewhere in the forums I a, writing up a lore project that features Saradomin fairly heavily and shows his positive sides including a part about his evolved relationship with humans.
Lewis
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Quester
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Scottish

23-May-2014 21:25:35

Balustan

Balustan

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A major lore readjustment. Yes because Saradomin has remained the same over the millenia? Oh wait in other posts you argue he has changed. Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.

Again you Raxxess have shown to use J mod quotes as canon in some cases and not in others and quite frankly shows you have a double standard though we all knew that already. Once again make up your mind what you want. Do you want the positive J Mod quotes to stand or not?
Lewis
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Quester
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Scottish

23-May-2014 21:28:45

Seraphius
Jul Member 2023

Seraphius

Posts: 207 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Balustan said :
Saradomin didn't care about them back then. He was young and it is in the past. He has not repeated the incident.

Also you use the Temple Knights who are not part of the humans who he abandoned. The abandonment was long before he arrived on Gielinor. He abandoned them for more useful races and then reconnected with them on Gielinor.

Again divination livestream.

He never brought any humans with him we know this. Sorry but quite frankly one negative thing which I don't even view as that bad given when it happened and how he has learned from it and which fits in with many other pieces of content.

Before you start with the whole Balustan just wants Saradomin to have more negatives again, as I have pointed out elsewhere in the forums I a, writing up a lore project that features Saradomin fairly heavily and shows his positive sides including a part about his evolved relationship with humans.

It being in the past or no, you have no evidence to prove whether Saradomin even did those things in the past. There is no grey area on the matter - either he did, or he didn't. Any implications coming from that we can discuss after you have brought solid proof that what you claim is indeed the case.

What we're not feeling comfortable with is not your criticisms of Saradomin, as long as the criticism is fair and well reasoned we're more than happy to discuss those points with you. What we are uncomfortable with is your trying to pass off opinion as fact, and mentioning entirely unheard-of theories and wrapping those up with 'this is established fact' or 'we know this'. No, they are not established fact and we don't know this, not until an authoritative source on the matter can be presented.

Simply put, we don't have a problem with you disliking Saradomin or Saradominists, but we do have a problem of you pulling 'canon information' from thin air and using them to prove any fact - regarding Saradomin or not.

23-May-2014 21:34:48

Balustan

Balustan

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You best hope you don't use any J Mod quotes which are not stated specifically in game from a reliable source in future btw cause I will simply use this argument against you. All those nice J Mod quotes about Saradomin people like to use no longer count from those who argue against J mod quotes in this thread.

Same goes for Chaos with nice Zamorakian quotes.

Also not from thin air. It's from the divination livestream. We know Saradomin had not been to Teragard for a long enough time that they were not in service to him or have a strong associating with gods at all else Guthix would not have brought them(and please don't bring up the ridiculous musing as you have argued on this thread it's non-canon) the world was being run by Magisters not Saradomin, we know he brought no humans to Gielinor with him and we know that humans are more useful on Gielinor due to runes where he reconnected with them.

Saradomin has changed from the time he abandoned humanity so really it does not factor into my view of Saradomin as a character now.

Also Seraphius while you may not Raxxess and Neo have a problem with it. They can't stand any dislike of Saradomin or any negativity on him at all.
Lewis
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Quester
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Scottish

23-May-2014 21:43:14

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mod Osborn did indeed say Saradomin abandoned humans for other, better races. He said this in the Divination Live Stream. Before calling sources thin air, why don't you check them out first. It would save everybody a lot of time.

23-May-2014 21:48:51

Raxxess

Raxxess

Posts: 2,236 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Balustan said :
A major lore readjustment. Yes because Saradomin has remained the same over the millenia? Oh wait in other posts you argue he has changed. Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.

Again you Raxxess have shown to use J mod quotes as canon in some cases and not in others and quite frankly shows you have a double standard though we all knew that already. Once again make up your mind what you want. Do you want the positive J Mod quotes to stand or not?

Again Ill redirect you to Mod's Jack's post in "zarosian genocide=false" about how you should deal with J-mod quotes. I post them as reference and I don't categorize all J-mods into one category. I think if Mod Stus give a quote clarifying what was implied in the quest he wrote I'm going to take that pretty highly. If a mod just posts a certain opinion or scenario that has no lore I probably won't take it as a good reference because its not meant to be.

Not everything J-mods say have to be a ground breaking lore fact, J-mods are players to and they may have an opinion just like you and I would have on lore. That doesn't mean they are leaking some not in game lore that we don't know of they could just be saying what they think about it. And then there are other scenarios where they are talking about lore, like how Mod-Jack clarified the Codex Ultimatus, or Mod Stu clarified sara's quotes in DoC.

You presented not a quote, but something said in the livestream as canon which we just disagreed with, I really don't care where your opinion lies I'm just telling you, just because its your opinion doesn't make it canon.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

23-May-2014 21:55:10

Seraphius
Jul Member 2023

Seraphius

Posts: 207 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Cthris said :
Mod Osborn did indeed say Saradomin abandoned humans for other, better races. He said this in the Divination Live Stream. Before calling sources thin air, why don't you check them out first. It would save everybody a lot of time.

Seems rather weird logic that it should be me who's responsible for validating a claim that I did not put forward myself.

The Divination Live Stream is hours long - if you want to make a point from an hours long video, I'd say it's common sense that you check the precise point of the video so as to make a specific reference. It's your point and your claim you're making, so it really isn't any of our responsibilities to go and check out a source simply because you said the answer 'is in there somewhere'. Likewise it isn't in my responsibility to necessarily entertain your claim and 'save everybody a lot of time' as well - we can just tldr or outright ignore those unfounded posts should we feel lazy or unreasonable enough; it's because we're trying to be reasonable, civil members of this discussion that we call for objective proof to be presented.

And yes, before you can conclusively present a piece of evidence regarding, well, any claim, it usually is assumed to be unfounded rather than founded. Last I checked the real world's justice system and indeed any form of serious debate works this way.

23-May-2014 22:01:09 - Last edited on 23-May-2014 22:01:40 by Seraphius

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Seraphius said :
Cthris said :
Mod Osborn did indeed say Saradomin abandoned humans for other, better races. He said this in the Divination Live Stream. Before calling sources thin air, why don't you check them out first. It would save everybody a lot of time.

Seems rather weird logic that it should be me who's responsible for validating a claim that I did not put forward myself.

The Divination Live Stream is hours long - if you want to make a point from an hours long video, I'd say it's common sense that you check the precise point of the video so as to make a specific reference. It's your point and your claim you're making, so it really isn't any of our responsibilities to go and check out a source simply because you said the answer 'is in there somewhere'. Likewise it isn't in my responsibility to necessarily entertain your claim and 'save everybody a lot of time' as well - we can just tldr or outright ignore those unfounded posts should we feel lazy or unreasonable enough; it's because we're trying to be reasonable, civil members of this discussion that we call for objective proof to be presented.

And yes, before you can conclusively present a piece of evidence regarding, well, any claim, it usually is assumed to be unfounded rather than founded. Last I checked the real world's justice system and indeed any form of serious debate works this way.

Well if you want to live in ignorance, go ahead, its not worth my time looking it up for someone who doesn't care. Just remember not to post "facts" on subjects that you haven't fully learned about. People have always been responsible for their own education, so why should it be different.

23-May-2014 22:05:15 - Last edited on 23-May-2014 22:10:36 by Cthris

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