RuneScape Forum Archive | Rs3 Lore That Hasn't Aged Well

Jul

2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Mel 624 said :

Parts of Lamistrad's memories
Others claimed an ideological motivation, and of these it was the philosophy of chaos that gained the most traction. Zemouregal claimed that Zamorak was dedicated to chaos as a concept, and even that Zamorak was in some way an embodiment of the very concept of chaos.

Although some of us were in contact with Zamorak during his sabbatical, he seemed uninterested in confirming any particular motivation, which Zemouregal took as further proof of his own perspective.

The details of this philosophy are well known amongst the Zamorakians and need not be repeated here. As more and more humans joined the rebel forces, 'chaos' became a rallying flag for them. Many came to us because they were fleeing or rejecting some aspect of authority within the empire, and a philosophy that prized individuality over structure, society or government was very appealing to them. In many ways anti-authoritarianism became a byword of Zamorakianism - an irony if ever there was one. Over time this developed into a very unhealthy anarchism, that said that any attempt to organise or cooperate or accomplish anything was reprehensible.

the humans in our faction began fabricating a mythology around our leader almost immediately. Zamorak did nothing to stop this, and even seemed amused by it. Before long we had rites and chants and holy books and mystical symbolism and all the trappings of a religion.

So it seems Zamorak doesn't concern him self to much about what his believers do in his name, unless going against his words and belief.

To continue.

"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

20-May-2022 17:45:13

Jul

2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Althougt reading on the RS wiki about "Military forces of the late third age".

Zamorak, an egalitarian, does not believe in dividing his forces racially as the Saradominists do. Instead, at least in principle, they are divided strictly by merit. In practice, the wildly different capabilities of the Zamorakian races lead to a lot of division - there are almost no humans in the flying alarii units, for example. As much as is possible, however, the forces are racially integrated and so it is normal to see, for example, humans and byzroth standing shoulder-to-shoulder in the legions.

Although philosophically Zamorak believes in freedom and chaos, the thousands of years he has spent leading forces in battle have made the value of military discipline and organisation very clear to him. Although soldiers must be disciplined and obedient, Zamorak also demands that his leaders inspire personal loyalty from their troops. Failures of discipline, especially in battle, are punished extremely harshly with the execution of one tenth of the unit. The leader is also considered to have failed and will at the very least be stripped of their command, if not executed themselves.

Can quote more about it, but best to read your self id didn't.

Regarding events of Shilo village quest. My guess its just a old quest in the time Zimzam was evil, unless they change to it was some other being who turned said son into a zombie and all. Maybe another Zamorakian or maybe even Sliske. After all "Undead; Though Zamorak dislikes their use, in recent years as his forces have become more desperate, they have started to rely more and more on undead troops." And - to continue

"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

20-May-2022 17:52:32

Jul

2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"Wights are animated using a complex and demanding process which results in them retaining some degree of intelligence and independence. Although somewhat less cerebral than a human, they are stronger and much tougher, and capable of serving on the front lines of the legions. The ratio of wights to living soldiers has to be kept low because they are largely incapable of participating in the legion's camaraderie and tend to lower morale. However, as things have become more desperate for the Zamorakians the proportion of wights has been rising. By the end of the third age as much as one fifth of Zamorak’s legionaries are wights."

Zamorak doesn't approve much of the undead it seems, but will make use of them if necessary if need be. For now, i guess its best to keep the Shilo business as another quest to reboot/change or explained more, just my thoughts.

Edit: I dunno about slaves and Iban but..
Iban was just probably a nut job and the slaves are just another form of miss interpretented philospohy by the many who follow Zamorak. Not the first time something happens like this..

"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

20-May-2022 17:59:19 - Last edited on 20-May-2022 18:02:23 by Derack

Dec

2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Wiki pages aren't really direct in-game sources. It can be a helpful place to find quotes and information you have a hard time getting to otherwise but it can also cause some misunderstandings due to its derivative nature. To get a better idea of what is and isn't said in-game it'd be best to look for the primary sources.

The clarification that Zamorak doesn't see the value of being clear enough about his philosophy to maintain some amount of consistency among his followers and seems largely indifferent to the needless violence and potential infighting he's knowingly propagating in his approach to leadership is helpful as well as a more satisfying explanation than what I've gotten up to this point. It at least acknowledges that he's still a pretty terrible person and contributed to those acts even if he didn't necessarily get directly involved in them. What he says if you talk to him at the Kinshra base still bugs me though.

Even when accounting for that with Zamorakians he's not directly involved with, interacting directly with some naturally raises questions about his apparent approval of what they do by lack of intervention. That's the main issue with finding him in the same building as slaves since it prompts questions on how slavery factors into his personal philosophy and I don't think they actually explain that anywhere.

I'm not sure how much of existing lore in Karamja they actually want to keep if they ever get around to updating the area. A new version of Shilo Village would likely end up looking very different from the current one.

For Iban I think they could just give us more information about him and associated events to better clarify things. Now that his actually being Zamorak's son is likely impossible, it seems more like it was some kind of hype thing to gather followers and power, so seeing more of how that actually worked in practice would be helpful lorewise. How to block a forum user

Death And Taxes: An Analysis

20-May-2022 22:35:25

Jul

2013

Derack

Posts: 3,066 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

"Military forces of the late third age" was said during Runefest 2019(?), Explained all the tactics, units and military doctrine of the forces of Arma Sara and Zamo.

Cant say that Zamorak is not a awfull person (from time to time). But atleast he isnt always rude not even towards the World Guardian (unless you side against him). I call that bonus points.

Which part of dialogue is that bugs you the most?

I do tend to agree he should be more direct and up front with his philosophy and rules. But the way i see it, Zamorak is someone who speaks with few words and doesn't butt to much into those under him their businisses, he's not their babysitter. Proper communucation is always one of the many things that is lacking in any of the god factions and all.

Yeah, the entire slavery part is something i don't get my self. How can a slave rise above if they keep getting knocked down over and over with no or very very slim chance to do anything? Still, i guess its just a way to just keep some dark and edgy stuff to associate with the Zamorakians.

Shilo village definitely needs a proper polish. Maybe change the one who raised the son to a zombie to be Sliske, Zemouregal or just some necromancer.

"If you believe you can distance yourself from the harm you cause, you're deluding yourself. You're not some mindless tool. You're accountable. Your actions will catch up with you eventually." -Jedi Master Jun Seros; Swtor Bounty Hunter storyline.

22-May-2022 14:25:53

Darelzel

Posts: 3,587 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

The Shilo village lore is something that predates the 2010s. If I were to list all the RS lore from 2001 to 2009 that hasn't aged well, we'd be here a lot longer. So therefore I chose to limit my focus to Dungeoneering and later. No lore earlier than 2010.

As far as Zamorak is concerned hopefully the upcoming quest will give further insights into him, as he's only played a minor role in the storylines since Sliske's Endgame.

27-May-2022 21:15:32

Darelzel

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Mel 624 said :
Most of the old 5th age lore involving Zamorak doesn't mesh well with where they took his character. I didn't mind that he was cartoonishly evil but it really clashes hard with attempts to portray him as some revolutionary fighting for freedom. They try to brush it off as anti-Zamorakian propaganda but the black knight base you can find him preaching in is riddled with blood, skulls and slaves. Signs of torture and slaughter riddle most of the places Zamorakians have been in. The Zamorakians that developed more constructive versions of his philosophy that's actually capable of coexisting with others are outliers who came about in his absence as people began to forget what the gods were actually like. I find myself wondering what kid of conflict there'd presumably be between them and the more violent and militant Zamorakians with the advent of the 6th age.

What does Zamorak think of Iban proclaiming himself as his son and all the messed up stuff he did in the underground pass? What lore relevant actions does he approve or disapprove of his followers doing in his absence? Is he still the one responsible for that whole situation with Rashiliyia and the undead ones in Karamja?

All good questions. Early on in 'Dishounour Among Thieves', there's a plot involving a schism between the Black Knights because different factions have different interpretations of Zamorak's philosophy. One is doing awful stuff. The other is encouraging chaos as a way of bringing about change and avoiding stagnation. The latter side clearly believes the former practices an oversimplification of Zamorakian philosophy at best.

But in the end, which side is truer to Zamorak himself? We may find the answers pretty soon with the coming Zamorak content.

27-May-2022 21:25:26

Darelzel

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Colossus823 said :
I agree with God Dragan above me. I like the Sixth Age, but it destroyed every bit of storymaking. Sometimes I wonder if it would have been better you would need to complete the 5th Age quests to gain access to 6th Age servers. It would exclude the majority of players, but the timeline would have been preserved. RuneScape is a mess now, full of anachronisms.

I agree with you that separating RS3 into Fifth Age and Sixth Age servers would make the game a LOT less confusing for newcomers who don't already know the lore. Look at the game map now. You now have to do the cave goblin quests (set in the 5th age) in the backdrop of a 6th Age version of Lumbridge (with the crater and all). The Blue Moon Inn now has a members only quest tease where people from previous 5th age quests are having a party to celebrate your completion of those quests, and players just have to ignore that until they become members and do the 'One Upon A TIme in Gielinor: Foreshadowing' quest.

However, it's just too much to force players to complete all 5th Age content before allowing them access to 6th Age. Not long after the release of Azzanadra's Quest, Mod Jack talked about the changes in quest requirements in 6th Age lore. He stated that in no other forms of entertainment can you not see certain episodes or movies without seeing the previous installments, and he's right - if people wanted to, they could see Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame without seeing the previous Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, though they will greater appreciate the storyline if they DO see the other movies first.

(continued next post)

27-May-2022 21:45:15

Darelzel

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(from previous post)

That's basically the approach they took with all post-Sliske's Endgame quests. In 'Curse of the Black Stone' and the Elder Gods quest series that begins with 'Desperate Times', Hannibus and Kerapac play important roles. In the old approach, you would have had to have completed 'One of a Kind' (the quest that introduces both characters) to start these quests. Now, that quest (and Sliske's Endgame) is only 'recommended' instead of required.

The reason why is because the quest requirement approach got to be too much. Ritual of the Mahjarrat has a HUGE amount of requirements, and Sliske's Endgame's requirements are a lot as well. At a certain point, a large section of content will be locked off. So in order for more players to experience this content, the designers made the choice to use the 'recommended' approach.

And I say it works. 'Desperate Times' begins with Seren giving a lot of exposition about who and what the Elder Gods are. Most of it are things those who played 'Fate of the Gods' and 'Children of Mah' already knew, but it tells the player everything they need to know in case they forgot the details or hadn't played the quests or looked them up on the wiki.

All in all, the creators at Jagex realized that given the development of the storyline, it just wasn't a good approach to lock so much content behind dozens of quest and skill requirements, and instead went for the 'recommended, but not required' approach. And I think it's for the best.

I do agree that having different 5th Age and 6th Age servers would make things less confusing. I just disagree on the idea that one should be required to do all 5th age content on the former before being allowed on the latter. And based on what I've heard from Mod Jack and others, I think the designers at Jagex would probably agree that it wouldn't be a good idea to lock 6th Age content behind requirements, either.

27-May-2022 21:57:19 - Last edited on 27-May-2022 22:09:57 by Darelzel

Darelzel

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Anyway, the post-Sliske's Endgame approach to quest lore content has aged a LOT better than the post 'The World Wakes' content, which had dialogue hidden that some people would never get to see unless they did the prior quests. Instead, the post-Sliskes Endgame quests do a better job with the story exposition so that people who haven't done the previous quests get just enough to get a good idea of who these character are, what's going on, and why everyone is doing what they're doing.

But I'm saying this as someone who knows much of the lore already before doing 'Desperate Times', 'Desperate Measures', 'Azzanadra's Quest', and so on, so that's just my perspective.

27-May-2022 22:06:28 - Last edited on 27-May-2022 22:16:37 by Darelzel

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Rs3 Lore That Hasn't Aged Well