forums.rs

Forums

Where's Elemental Workshop?

Quick find code: 16-17-330-66269450

of 3
Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
III certainly was horrible - and no body should be ashamed to having used a guide for that (which also is the reason why I do not understand this ruckus, it's really no deal with one...), but IV wasn't that bad to be fair.

Obviously what should globally changed - streamlining the process of creating primed bars as soon as you made one and giving the existing sets some purpose, since when the existing ones are convincing at low levels, they obviously could have some kind of niche appeal at mid and high levels as well. Right now - they're junk - and just extrapolating them to high levels won't help either. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

13-Jan-2023 09:12:29 - Last edited on 13-Jan-2023 09:13:54 by Rikornak

Deltaslug

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I fully agree that the Elemental Workshop series needs some sort of narrative conclusion.
I fully agree that we should at least be able to complete the traditional armor set (EW5: the quest for pants).

I however disagree with the need for a continuation of the series as a collection of puzzle based quests.

Death of Chivalry 2 already has precedence for "no quest, but here is the story". Mod Stu was never given the chance to have a proper sequel. But ... they still had Sir Owen tell his story. (Just because the World Guardian/main POV character wasn't there, doesn't mean that something doesn't happen).

The Elemental Workshop Series is unique that most of the events are a bit like what we see in Archaeology .... it has already happened. We're just finding old books/stories. Restoring old equipment. And following in someone else's footsteps.
This is not some time sensitive quest that came out of the blue. Vitruvius lived over a century ago now.
The workshop is decades old suffering from varying stages of disrepair. The fact that the workshop which is underground and near a major lake hasn't suffered fires, cave ins, flooding, creatures breaking it ... let alone rust etc ... is a minor miracle.

The quest series could effectively end with the player finding the next couple of rooms of equipment destroyed and we only get the chance to find out the rest of the story via the inventor's journals.

13-Jan-2023 17:07:37

Deltaslug

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Second, mechanically, the EW armor set is a quest locked, smithed, mage tank armor.
So yes, we had the skill rework for mining and smithing. Bronze to Rune was retiered. 4 new core ore/bar tiers were added. We gained a Masterwork/Trim at T99. Hurrah.

Magic armor is in a different place. We do have a lot of armor options for magic. So it's not like we need EW Armor to fill in any gaps.
Next, it is Tank Armor. Though there is a niche for it now with Animate Dead.

Devs need to decide if it is going to be a Rune/Orikalkum equivalent at max tier ... if they are going to make it go up to Elder Rune in tier .... or if they just want it to be "cosmetic".


Thirdly, still in mechanics ... the next tiers don't need to be complex machines.
Vitruvius was a master mage, metallurgist, crafter, and Inventor in a time before the skill. The dude doesn't have to be a master of everything.
He may have hit a wall and got stuck at Chaos.
He may have found that while the lower tier stuff could be manufactured with overly complex machines ... the solutions to Nature, Death, Blood, Astral, and Soul could have required a very different approach. (ie: literally growing a Nature Bar, simply channeling Summoning energies for Astral Bars, some drops of blood to catalyze into a Blood Bar).
From a graphical and technical development PoV, this would be wwwaaayyy easier to pull off than some of the other stuff they've done. And it would fall in line with the master inventor having to branch out and think outside the technical box to solve ever increasingly complex/abstract problems to the EW bars.

13-Jan-2023 17:07:41 - Last edited on 13-Jan-2023 17:17:29 by Deltaslug

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Leaving some additional commentary regarding the armour:

It's one of the pieces of equipment, that just never were really fitted into the EoC, which is why it nowadays is so underlevelled all over the place. But in general it's like a lot of things spawned at the time it was conceived so incredibly specific. It basically had no stats at all (neither positive, nor negative) with the exception of some magic protection (as well as summoning from body onwards) - which ironically should make it ranged equipment instead. And the shield allowed players to fight wyverns when they can't afford the back then highly expensive dragonfire shield - which gives it some appeal in OS, despite only the mind shield existing there.

If this functionality was to be replicated, it should be hybrid armour (and yes - they still need to fix that whole armour class) with some kind of passive effect (or set bonus) protecting players against damage through magic and familiars. That probably still wouldn't make it insanely useful - but nobody would ever consider wearing it as basic magic tank equipment - even if soul could actually end up at tier 80 or so (I doubt it'll be higher than that).

They have distinct components - so they also could design some interesting perk around it, players might be using in some situation. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

13-Jan-2023 19:31:44 - Last edited on 13-Jan-2023 19:32:58 by Rikornak

DrauDaedolon
Aug Member 2006

DrauDaedolon

Posts: 10,120 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I would also like to see another entry in the Elemental Workshop series, although III was a low point for me due to its badly-designed puzzle. (A slide puzzle would have worked if it were possible to click on the tiles directly like in Treasure Trails, not those running-around-pulling-levers shenanigans with limited moves.)

And as Rikornak pointed out, it wouldn't hurt to go back and tidy up some of the mechanics. Many technical aspects of the game have changed over the years that could be taken advantage of.

14-Jan-2023 13:22:41 - Last edited on 14-Jan-2023 13:22:49 by DrauDaedolon

Miles Prower
Nov Member 2006

Miles Prower

Posts: 9,764 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Seems a lot of complaints about the Elemental Workshop series are about the complex puzzles, which isn't a good excuse in my book. It's great to have such diverse content and if anything, it would be awesome to see any finale to the series include a guide-resistant (unique to each player) puzzle. Complex it may be, the personal satisfaction on completion is a core part of what makes any game fun. :D Low on bank space? Click here .

15-Jan-2023 05:27:22

Deltaslug

Deltaslug

Posts: 32,671 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
@Miles Prower
It is actually a valid response.
MEP2 for example is a hated puzzle because of the artificial difficulty of having to run around that huge area multiple times.

Besides, overly elaborate puzzles are like bosses with absurdly high health bars and high defense. Or bosses that rely on stuns and one hit kill mechanics.
Are those types of bosses "fun"?

15-Jan-2023 15:57:14

Rikornak
Oct Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 9,169 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Not to forget certain asinine RNG heaviness for which certain quests are more than notorious. But I mean - RS was built upon that - just take a look at what the combat system was and actually often enough still is - certainly not as bad for very modern things at least. I mean - I don't know which dev (and especially their superior or anyone working in QA) was insane enough to nod off something like olaf's quest as something that can be released in that form. ME2 before it was fixed in both games also was something like that. And probably so many other examples, which are bad, but certainly not that memorable awful than those quests. Those stinkers certainly contribute to quests not being that popular among certain players. And they stand out even more when it comes to them being compared to modern quests - which is even moreso an issue in OS, which basically kept its stinkers as is with some very few exceptions (like ME2 - I mean - it would have heavily degraded prif if it was kept as is...), while RS2/3 often (sadly not always - see dear olaf) polished them at least a bit.

I mean - solving a puzzle can be fun - but the puzzle should be comprehensible (without being the designer), well to handle (I think that actually was something, that was fixed at one point in the past for EWIII...) and predictable (take this RNG component again - that's one of the reasons why most daemonheim puzzles for instance really, really, really suck). It's totally fine if players grab a guide if they can't solve the puzzle for themselves and this is why a complex puzzle alone shouldn't be hated, but if it mechanically sucks - totally fine.

But that's also something for combat - you should be punished for failing mechanics, not due to crappy combat causing you to miss 10 times in a row (at least this is supposed to be fixed for old stuff as part of a game jam project - whenever that one may show up). Figuring out how a boss works also can be something like a puzzle after all... Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

15-Jan-2023 17:55:38 - Last edited on 15-Jan-2023 18:04:45 by Rikornak

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Polish up the quests so that the post quest armour making process is streamlined and simple regardless of what you had to do during the quest to unlock it and that addresses most of the issues. The armour should at least be accessible without having to go through a long and tedious process running all over the workshop just to make a set of chaos armour for that one archaeology achievement. Fix the stats and you'd have a viable armour set with interesting lore attached. How to block a forum user

Death And Taxes: An Analysis

21-Jan-2023 00:40:34

Quick find code: 16-17-330-66269450 Back to Top