RuneScape Forum Archive | † World 103 POC Community T5 †

Jul

2023

3randon

Posts: 913 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

lets bitch about format

Learn to use logic and reason, it will serve you better than Pride or Vanity

To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.

22-Nov-2016 21:21:58 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2016 01:11:05 by 3randon

Jul

2023

3randon

Posts: 913 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

building my bridge to fucking cry on

Learn to use logic and reason, it will serve you better than Pride or Vanity

To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.

22-Nov-2016 21:25:10 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2016 01:11:37 by 3randon

The Gud Kang

Posts: 14,154 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

sighs Here we go again...

Land Raiding: No, not because it's a bad idea, but because no one really uses the Naval mechanics. I'd rather not add more features that we aren't going to use. If people start using the naval stuff then I would be all for implementing this.

Default Rules: I would rather not revise all of the default rules at once because that gets confusing, and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with them as they stand. I would really prefer that we make one proposal at a time rather than propose a bunch, because all of the proposed changes are going to get confusing.

I'll just state unequivocally: I oppose changing the default rules from full out and from not allowing allies. I stand to gain little from this opposition, but World 103 stands to lose a lot.

22-Nov-2016 21:45:30

The Gud Kang

Posts: 14,154 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

In case you want to read more: My clan itself stands to gain little from opposing the changes. If the default rules were switched to 10v10 we would easily win every war (KASH would be the only competition), whereas right now the size of LAK and KASH potentially makes us weaker than them at fullout (we'd have to test the theory, but you know what I mean). However, lowering the bar to 10v10 does enable the smaller/weaker clans to not clan build. I'm not as passionate about this opposition as I am the allies rules, and I would be amendable to changing my vote with a good counter-argument, but I think that there's nothing wrong with 1. Including all of your clan in your victories and 2. Having to put in some work for your wins and build your clan, also 3. This would put us at a huge advantage because we did raids before everyone else.

As for allies: This is and always will be a terrible idea. Allies are what messed up W83, and it could easily happen here too. All it takes is one intractable rivalry like KOY-MC or ZK-KOV and the world is mired in some cold war. Again, having allies on would be a boon for NxG. People would call us in to fight all of their battles for them. We'd go help KW fight KOI in this scenario, and that's exactly the problem with this idea. KOI will have done all of this recruiting to beat KW, and yet they would (probably) lose due to our involvement with KW having to put in minimal effort (this is just an example, I'm sure if Stew did some god tier recruiting they could be a match for KOI). This would actually take the fun and competition OUT of warring for the smaller clans, Brandon's good intentions aside.

22-Nov-2016 21:52:16

Dec

2014

Damion Avah

Posts: 583 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Though I believe that allies are more...symbolic in a sense, really depends how the two clans treat it. By that I mean there are other ways to give an appeal to being allies by for example preferential trade or exclusive events and such (just random examples). There can be more to allies than just within war agreements.

As for war agreements, it's a tricky thing to change as the pros and cons to the proposal must be weighed to avoid possible conflict or consequences.
The issue I personally see is how it intervenes with the negotiation process which may or may not sit well with some. It should be a case of being reasonable and both sides actively trying to find common ground. And if I am correct, it has been made where a mutual party can be called in to help advise and possibly get things moving incase things become stagnate.

Withing your first option under suboption b, I can see room for exploitation. Would it happen? Possibly not but it's best not leave obvious loopholes where down the line it could be exploited. But going back to option a, I am to a degree in agreeance with have a army size of for example 10 V 10 to protect smaller clans, but many arguements can be made about that as to why it shouldn't or why it should be a thing.

As for option 2 I can see it as a safety measures of sorts. And to be fair, possibly the less problematic out of the 2. It allows for negotiable to go through freely and if it really ends up to be an issue and for to be a safeguard from conflicts blowing up, it could be beneficial. But still see it as a basis for a final plan as it still ways to be abused Ina way.

One thing I would like to raise is, what would be considered a small clan to where they would need that fair help. Just as something to work off of. Taking also into account that the total number in the clan does not equal active base.

Like I said, it's a finicky thing to try to get in. Every detail must be taken into account.

~~† Emperor of the The Menaphite Empire †~~

~~~Search for the laws of harmony, and you will find knowledge~~~

---

22-Nov-2016 21:53:55

Dec

2014

Damion Avah

Posts: 583 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

The Gud Kang said :
In case you want to read more:

As for allies: This is and always will be a terrible idea. Allies are what messed up W83, and it could easily happen here too. All it takes is one intractable rivalry like KOY-MC or ZK-KOV and the world is mired in some cold war. Again, having allies on would be a boon for NxG. People would call us in to fight all of their battles for them. We'd go help KW fight KOI in this scenario, and that's exactly the problem with this idea. KOI will have done all of this recruiting to beat KW, and yet they would (probably) lose due to our involvement with KW having to put in minimal effort (this is just an example, I'm sure if Stew did some god tier recruiting they could be a match for KOI). This would actually take the fun and competition OUT of warring for the smaller clans, Brandon's good intentions aside.

I honestly agree with this. There was a point I believed allies should play a role in wars, but after several discussions with multiple people I see it as a negative thing. It would throw things out of balance and possibly take out the fun and quality in a war. As I said in my previous post, allies can be fully beneficial outside of wars and has little real need to be involved in wars unless both sides really want to.

~~† Emperor of the The Menaphite Empire †~~

~~~Search for the laws of harmony, and you will find knowledge~~~

---

22-Nov-2016 21:58:21

Apr

2020

Astrazak

Posts: 1,026 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I think Brandon raises a lot of good points here.

Firstly, there DEFINITELY needs to be some amending done to the default war terms. As it stands, if the two clans cannot come to agreement, the defending clan loses their land. Let's say KOI declares on TSV under the terms of 40v40. We say no, 5v5. Then they don't budge, nor do we -- it winds up going to all out (which would be unfair). Bigger clans can exploit this rule quite easily and win by sheer numbers.

Secondly, the issue of allies. Allies have always served an integral purpose in POCs. Yeah, they're responsible for the stagnating state of 83, but we're MUCH different. I don't think that NXG wouldn't not declare on TSV if we were allied to LAK. As NXG has stated in the past, they are only interested in quality of war AND as their leader just said, only KASH can give them some sort of fair fight, wouldn't allies fix this by increasing quality of wars? NXG mopped the floor with KOI; but could they do the same with KOI-TSV-KOV? Well, that we'd have to see.

I don't see allies throwing off the balance if we implement them correctly. Let's say TSV and KOV war; TSV pulls 8 and KOV pulls 20. If quality of war is what we're after, it won't be found here as the war would quickly turn in KOV's favor.

103 is supposed to be more volatile & be more open to wars but it's like the same 3 clans declaring all of the time (KASH, NXG & KOI). The rest of us don't declare because there is little chance KOV could beat KASH or LAK beating KOI or TSV beating NXG. If we allowed for allies, I'm sure wars would be more FUN & give weaker clans like pretty much everyone but NXG & KASH a chance to win.

22-Nov-2016 22:32:37

Apr

2020

Astrazak

Posts: 1,026 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Sound: "2. Having to put in some work for your wins and build your clan." This is a horrid point. Bigger clans are able to recruit much more easily than smaller clans due to their citadel size, event pull and their large social aspect. This doesn't mean the smaller clans aren't putting in work? KW has been working their asses off building up their clan, but were only able to turn out 2 people for their war. TSV has been recruiting and working on its members, trying to become a bigger clan but it takes time. KASH, KOI and LAK are huge clans with a lot of actives, high-levelled citadels and a lot of events. That is what's appealing to possible recruits. KW, TSV & KOV may not have the numbers but we are trying to keep pushing on. Insinuating that looking for allies is an easy way out for those that don't want to "build [their] clan[s]" or "put in some work" is offensive & diminishing with regard to all the work us little clans have been putting in

22-Nov-2016 22:38:09 - Last edited on 22-Nov-2016 22:45:06 by Astrazak

The Gud Kang

Posts: 14,154 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Astra,

You're reading insult into my statement, I meant no harm. To me there is less incentive to work hard if you feel that your allies will protect you from all conflict, but that was just an example so I'm putting this to bed.

I think that there is much more potential for abuse with this allied system than there is for benefit. A best case scenario would be what you outlined - 3 small clans ganging up on NxG. But, I get along well with Bowie. What if Bowie decides you guys ganging up together is pathetic, and he decides to team up with NxG for the lols? What if big clans decide to divvy up the world for themselves, and leave you guys high and dry? Your only recourse is to kick them out, but only if you have the votes.

I'm not saying that any of this is going to happen, but W103 is ever-changing and different clans/leaders will be in power over time. There are a lot of ways that this can go badly for everyone, and I'm not going to go into every possible scenario, but it is easy for the big guys to have an advantage here, too. One of the reasons the default allies-off rule was implemented was explicitly because of the shenanigans that come with having allies on in wars. It is much simpler and as fair as possible to keep it at two clans, one war. Is it perfect? No, but there is less potential for abuse this way.

As for the default rules: I agree. I think that the threadholder (or if it's their clan another appointed person) should have the authority to step in and set some default war terms if two clans can't agree. You could do a general day like Saturday, at a general time like 4 EST. That way there has to be a war at some point whether or not the two clans get along, and no one risks forfeiture.

You could make matched wars the default, as I said I am open to counter-arguments here, but I think it takes away some of the fun of having your whole clan involved in the process.

I ask that we propose one change at a time to keep discussion simple.

22-Nov-2016 23:18:48

Jul

2023

3randon

Posts: 913 Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

oh wait its...

Learn to use logic and reason, it will serve you better than Pride or Vanity

To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.

22-Nov-2016 23:25:38 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2016 01:11:58 by 3randon

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