Forums

Remove citadel upkeep: 05-Apr

Quick find code: 86-87-468-65942898

Lord Courage
Feb Member 2020

Lord Courage

Posts: 1,023 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
"Remove citadel upkeep:

05-Apr-2017 11:03:28
Mod Matthe said:
Citadels have upkeep for a number of design reasons, not least that a Citadel is a reward of being an active clan.

With the changes coming to the Clan Avatar a dilapidated citadel will mean the Clan is unable to use its avatars until it is restored. Upkeep will be required still.

Mod Matthe said:
There are two types of achievements in RuneScape, ones that once achieved are parked and ones that require maintenance. It tends to be that the ones that require maintenance provide a number of solid game advantages for the players that benefit from them - Citadel is one of those.

While some high level players complain about the XP levels from the Citadel plots not being best in class (and it is highly unlikely they would ever be) they are still very good given the "free" nature of the skilling method compared to normal skilling methods, especially with the full fealty bonus. It also provides for the avatar bonus which boosts so many other skilling methods in the wider game.

I think we would be more likely to scrap Citadels entirely than we would be to remove the upkeep requirement.

Mod Matthe said:
We do not agree that tiers should not be lost - that is considered a fundamental of the Citadel. We would probably remove the Citadel before we would look at removing the current maintenance requirements entirely."


1. Citadels are not a reward of being an active clan, they're a curse. The end result is nice, the work for it is not. The content is dated and underused.

2. *thumbs up* for listening to feedback

3. Name 3 achievements other than anything related to the hi scores or that involve additions to the game (quest cape and completionist cape) that require maintenance (since there is no content added to citadels).

4. Processing skills free xp, fair enough. Gathering skills, getting nothing to sell makes them far more undesirable.

5. Because a scrap is always a better idea

20-Aug-2017 16:13:27 - Last edited on 20-Aug-2017 16:13:51 by Lord Courage

Body btw

Body btw

Posts: 19,488 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Why is citadel suddenly the hottest topic these days? Surely there's other things to talk about

In my opinion, it should be removed - at the very least, capping should be removed and the citadel can remain as a "home base" for clans.

The rewards/benefits of the citadel should be moved to some other area of the game. It can remain with clans only, just not tied to citadel capping.
"Why are you posting threads, asking questions and making discussion???"


All I do anymore is fish - 2017

20-Aug-2017 17:28:56 - Last edited on 20-Aug-2017 17:36:43 by Body btw

Ignore List
Sep Member 2011

Ignore List

Posts: 4,879 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lord Courage said :

1. Citadels are not a reward of being an active clan, they're a curse. The end result is nice, the work for it is not. The content is dated and underused.


It is a pain in the backside I agree - My clan worked very hard to earn our Tier 7 and Clan dragon before upkeep and visitor count was reduced. You required 50 people just to visit and 15-20 people (Cant remember exact number) were required just for the upkeep.

I wouldn't say its so much so a reward, it's more of an achievement and as such a status symbol/bragging right kinda thing. I would argue that just capping a lone is a curse, but I don't seem to understand you point on how upkeep itself makes it dead content.

Also forgive me but you're not currently in a clan so I don't know how you know/think citadels are underused. In addition I don't think you have the data to hand to say only X amount of people in the entire game cap in the citadel weekly to argue it is dead/underused.

In regards to "dated" I don't see any suggestions from you in ways to update it. I don't think removing the upkeep is an example of making it less dated.

In addition without upkeep how do you differentiate between and active and dead clan? in addition without upkeep everyone can just own their own clan and have a tier 1 citadel which is all you need to have a personal avatar.

Lord Courage said :
2. *thumbs up* for listening to feedback


Mod Matthe took the time to read and make those responses, he could have just ignored this entire forum section, I'm sorry I just find your just filled with complaints as opposed to constructive criticism or a solution. Since the removal was declined how about offering an alternative?

Jagex doesn't need to implement everything we suggest/complain out. If I had my way bossing for example wouldn't be apart of the completionist requirement and Wilderness Warbands wouldn't be a thing either.
Ray
|
Need Help?
Try the Support Centre |
Owner
of Bass and Drums

20-Aug-2017 19:12:25

Ignore List
Sep Member 2011

Ignore List

Posts: 4,879 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lord Courage said :
3. Name 3 achievements other than anything related to the hi scores or that involve additions to the game (quest cape and completionist cape) that require maintenance (since there is no content added to citadels).


The main ones are those which you have said not to include however I can think of a few.

1) kingdom of miscellania
2) Farming

I'll have to actually think about more content which does have a maintenance but argubaly they will all tie into the completionist cape in some sort of way.

Lord Courage said :
4. Processing skills free xp, fair enough. Gathering skills, getting nothing to sell makes them far more undesirable.


Honestly the only way I see citadels become used more is to either offer higher xp rates (matching those outside or coming really close) or adding more content to it. Removing upkeep won't make it less dead in the slightest. People will still continue gaining your cap is still a "chore"

Lord Courage said :
5. Because a scrap is always a better idea


You're thinking about this through the mindset of a player and not a company. Think of it this way, Would you spend the money to fix something? or the same amount of money making something new?

It will always come down to the game of money and priority, becuase if Jagex do one thing it means something else can't be done. For example if they spend 6 months on clans then thats time they are not able to spend on making a new boss or quest which means those communities will complain just the same.

So it's an endless cycle.

I personally would love for upkeep to be removed but I can see why it is here and here to stay.
Ray
|
Need Help?
Try the Support Centre |
Owner
of Bass and Drums

20-Aug-2017 19:25:20

Lord Courage
Feb Member 2020

Lord Courage

Posts: 1,023 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Bodyy
1. No-one else seems to have any more worthwhile ideas, but perhaps we've reached the point 6 years later that everything's been said and done.
2.Fair point Bodyy, I've only wanted it for it's home part, not the skilling part.

Ignore List
1. If people don't like it, we should change it if we have the power to do so.
2. Aye I do admire the clans that manage it but come on even the people that have t7 citadel don't like upkeep.
3. I am in a clan
4. You don't need stats for everything, I know people don't play fifa 09 as much anymore but I don't have the stats for it.
5. As much as I'd like an actual update/rework, I'd rather have a small change that doesn't require a lot of work than a big one with everything we want that's always remains in the "planning stage" Wasn't it Construction rework in the future updates for 2013....yeah still waiting on it =D
6. Removing upkeep won't make it less dated but it will mean people's work is for nothing. My citadel was tier 6 almost 7, and now this week I re-opened a dilapidated tier 1 citadel. To me that seems a waste. Lets use the 2hours a week for 52 weeks again. 104 hours at minimum wage for me that's about 104*7=£728 that's time wasted doesn't seem like much, let's say you're tier 7 and get 50 mems capping a week. 104*50 =£5200. For 6 years £5200*6=£31200. I'm just giving a comparison to show if I was working for something I'd like a little more for my time.
7. I think that's a problem that should be sorted with what classes as an active clan rather than an active citadel. Clan's under 5 active p2p members wouldn't be able to access the citadel for starters. IMO clans with no active admin+ ranks within the past 6 months should be disbanded automatically.
8. It was literally part of his job, If i'm a lifeguard I don't ignore the left side of the pool.

20-Aug-2017 19:50:20

Lord Courage
Feb Member 2020

Lord Courage

Posts: 1,023 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
8. Nothing is permanent everything can be changed, you just have to fight hard enough for it.
Removing upkeep seems a little easier to do that adding a new boss, they've already manipulated upkeep previously.

9. Miscellania sort of but you still get something out of it no matter what.
Farming, you still get levels out of it, that's the whole point.
Citadels the training the skills is not the main point, the capping is.

10. I'm not trying to solve the whole problem, I'm just trying to make a small relatively easy change.

20-Aug-2017 20:10:21

Ignore List
Sep Member 2011

Ignore List

Posts: 4,879 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lord Courage said :
1. If people don't like it, we should change it if we have the power to do so.

I was talking about the aspect of capping not the upkeep - so would you remove capping? would you make it faster?

The simple solution would be not to cap, its not mandatory, I don't like capping and I have the members and the numbers for upkeep and everything to be done, the reason I continue to cap is because I want to be a role model and if my clan members can spend the time to cap the least I can do is cap with them.

Lord Courage said :
2. Aye I do admire the clans that manage it but come on even the people that have t7 citadel don't like upkeep.

I'll be dead honest in my 7 years or so of being in the Clan Leader Forum, the number of times upkeep has come up has been small, instead the issue which has come up the most was the time it takes to cap and the xp you get from capping.

As I've said removing the upkeep wouldn't help. I sure as hell know more of my clan members wouldn't go start capping, the reason they don't is because of the two reasons which clan members have brought up before.

Lord Courage said :
3. I am in a clan

My apologies, when I clicked your Adventure log it didn't show a clan at all.

Lord Courage said :
4. You don't need stats for everything, I know people don't play fifa 09 as much anymore but I don't have the stats for it.

I don't think that's a fair comparison, rightfully there have been updates to the game (or so i assume, i always hated football games) but people would have moved onto fifa 10/11/12 etc.

The number of cappers isn't exactly the same and you can't count it like that. Though I know personally mine went down as I lost a lot of members when EOC came out and then when OSRS came out.

This is why I think stats are important so we can make an informed and educated argument as to why it should be removed.
Ray
|
Need Help?
Try the Support Centre |
Owner
of Bass and Drums

20-Aug-2017 21:54:40

Ignore List
Sep Member 2011

Ignore List

Posts: 4,879 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lord Courage said :
5. As much as I'd like an actual update/rework, I'd rather have a small change that doesn't require a lot of work than a big one with everything we want that's always remains in the "planning stage" Wasn't it Construction rework in the future updates for 2013....yeah still waiting on it =D


That's why I prefer the saying "under promise, over deliver" - Recently we spoke to Mod Matthe about re balancing the xp given by some of the plots, he has taken that feedback and spoken to Mod Timbo and they have agreed to look into that and have that adjusted.

Suggest some small changes and perhaps they may just even happen. I've been personally trying my hardest to convince Mod Moltare to release the Avatar Rework earlier as it is currently waiting on a piece of engine work and there is no fixed time for when that can happen, and he said he'll speak to Mod Osborne and if he bumps it up the list then Mod Moltare would be willing to release the avatar update. (Small victories ;) )
Ray
|
Need Help?
Try the Support Centre |
Owner
of Bass and Drums

20-Aug-2017 22:28:39

Ignore List
Sep Member 2011

Ignore List

Posts: 4,879 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lord Courage said :
6. Removing upkeep won't make it less dated but it will mean people's work is for nothing. My citadel was tier 6 almost 7, and now this week I re-opened a dilapidated tier 1 citadel. To me that seems a waste. Lets use the 2hours a week for 52 weeks again. 104 hours at minimum wage for me that's about 104*7=£728 that's time wasted doesn't seem like much, let's say you're tier 7 and get 50 mems capping a week. 104*50 =£5200. For 6 years £5200*6=£31200. I'm just giving a comparison to show if I was working for something I'd like a little more for my time.

I feel many leaders would agree with me here, the reason you are complaining about upkeep is because you have sadly lost your citadel because you couldn't meet upkeep. Forgive me but in order for your citadel to be locked from tier 6 would take 13 weeks.

tier 6
tier 6 probation
tier 5
tier 5 probation
tier 4
tier 4 probation
tier 3
tier 3 probation
tier 2
tier 2 probation
tier 1
tier 1 probation
locked.

For upkeep at tier 7 you require 10 people, and since you have 3 avatars what you need then is 7 people. For T6 I cant remember the exact number so lets assume it is 10 but you have 2 avatars so you require 8 people for upkeep. So forgive me but in your clan of 131 I find it really strange and hard to believe 8 people couldn't go cap.

To me that doesn't suggest a problem with upkeep but rather your clan not wanting to go and cap becuase they just simply don't want to cap or its because of the 1 of 2 reasons i stated above. (Experience given or the time it takes to cap)

I know how you feel, I know I'd be heartbroken should my clan lose its citadel after having it since it came out and the countless time we have met upkeep and the countless people who have capped in order for us to maintain and upgrade the citadel. But then in its place Jagex could add a higher visitor requirement in which case we'd be back on the forums complaining but about visitor count this time.
Ray
|
Need Help?
Try the Support Centre |
Owner
of Bass and Drums

20-Aug-2017 22:53:53 - Last edited on 20-Aug-2017 23:58:53 by Ignore List

Ignore List
Sep Member 2011

Ignore List

Posts: 4,879 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lord Courage said :
7. I think that's a problem that should be sorted with what classes as an active clan rather than an active citadel. Clan's under 5 active p2p members wouldn't be able to access the citadel for starters. IMO clans with no active admin+ ranks within the past 6 months should be disbanded automatically.

And this is why the visitor requirement is 5, but my point is why bother having clans with lots of people? everyone could just make their own citadel with just 5 people and keep it that way and have their own avatar.

Can you think of a way to determine an active clan between a dead one? becuase I'm sure they would be interested in hearing that.

I think the part about the inactive admin is bad, not every clan has admins believe it or not. I've spoken to Mod Moltare about clearing out inactive clans with less than 5 people which you can read on the "Jmod Q&A thread".

Lord Courage said :
8. Nothing is permanent everything can be changed, you just have to fight hard enough for it. Removing upkeep seems a little easier to do that adding a new boss, they've already manipulated upkeep previously.

I think its's a case of its easier said then done. I know the clan coding is one of the really difficult ones, but if they don't remove it, i'm sure they won't do upkeep/dilapidation the same way in future updates.

Lord Courage said :
9. Miscellania sort of but you still get something out of it no matter what.
Farming, you still get levels out of it, that's the whole point.
Citadels the training the skills is not the main point, the capping is.


With Miscellania you get money, with citadel you get xp, avatar and bonus xp so you still get someone out of it.

With regards to your last part about the training - the whole citadel is about capping, its about collecting resources to upgrade your citadel. Its not meant to be an alternative form of skilling but a weekly supplement.
Ray
|
Need Help?
Try the Support Centre |
Owner
of Bass and Drums

20-Aug-2017 23:16:59

Quick find code: 86-87-468-65942898 Back to Top