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Help Me Understand the GE Tax

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Xanadeus
Dec Member 2022

Xanadeus

Posts: 3,426 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I quit the game around 2007 because of major changes on PKing, the wildy and the introduction of the GE.

I am trying to learn to like the game again and it has not been easy. Though I do respect and appreciate Jagex as I believe they have always been relatively fair and have good intentions, I do not always understand or appreciate some of the changes in the game.

I am a returning player who feels lost in a new world so I'm not really an expert to speak on this matter and I am open to hear opinions.

I do not understand the GE tax. I feel like the one good thing the GE did was make items more accessible and reduce scamming in the game. Player to player trades often lead to scams, especially scamming of newer players who end up getting hurt the most.

This tax is encouraging more player to player transactions in an attempt to avoid the tax which is a huge hit on high priced items. Imagine when the max cash issue is fixed. An item worth 4 billion sold on the grand exchange will be taxed 80 million. Wouldn't you try to do a player to player sell to save 80 million?

Please help me understand what the problem was that brought on the GE tax? One thing I have noticed is the game is dominated by whiners now. People who hate PVPing, who whine about the cost of items, etc. I've never seen any game improve by catering to whiners.

I'm wondering if this tax will have unforeseen negative consequences in the game. What changes are people noticing?

I am also a little saddened the death cost has been reduced. Why not just make it so you can't die? That's the next step. The risk of loss is what makes game exciting. Otherwise you're creating a child's game.

I may be wrong but I suspect the reason people risked high death cost to fight bosses was because the value of the potential drop was so high. If you make that item easier to obtain and more accessible, won't it eventually reduce the value of that item making it less desirable to obtain?

29-Jan-2023 19:48:06

A  Cole
Nov Member 2003

A  Cole

Posts: 14,682 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The problem with death costs was that it disproportionally affected those who were either not very good at combat or new to bossing. I.e. the money leaving the game was coming from players who weren't bringing in much money. The knock on effect of this is that players are less likely to continue PvM activities because they can't afford to keep dying as they learn the boss.

High level PvM may bring a lot of high value items and GP into the game, but those who bring in the most tend not to die very often, hence don't have to pay much out in death costs.

The Dev Blog states death costs accounted for 62% of all GP leaving the game. Reducing death costs therefore would have a massive impact on inflation. To help alleviate the impact, the GE tax was introduced.

The GE tax should not be seen so much as a tax. It is more of a convenience fee. The 2% flat rate is negligible compared to the natural price variation on almost every single item. Therefore, 99.9% of the time, the convenience fee has almost zero affect on the average player.

Your concern regarding much higher valued items, however, is a real one. It is thought that when the GP limit fix comes into the game, there may be limits to how much tax is paid on higher valued items. Like you say, pushing players to Player-Player trading can open more people up to traditional scams. However, we're already in that position regardless as these items cannot be traded on the GE right now anyway.

Also, the GE isn't completely infallible to scams. I won't be posting how they work here, but I have seen first hand players be scammed out of 100's of millions of GP via the GE.

In my opinion, the GE tax is the most fair, least discriminatory method of controlling inflation. More could possibly have been done to target the GP generators, such as alch machines, but there are probably other factors at play which made Jagex choose this direction.

I also agree that high rewards should have high costs associated with them.


~A~

29-Jan-2023 20:36:51

Xanadeus
Dec Member 2022

Xanadeus

Posts: 3,426 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Thanks for the reply. I think you did a great job objectively responding to my topic.

I honestly don't have much of an opinion on the matter as I do not have enough knowledge about the current game.

My primary concerns are don't push people to player to player trading and don't cater to people who whine about something being challenging as long as it is fair play. People need challenges and goals as that's what stimulates growth and creates life.

I left Runescape and went to another game because it was full loot PvP and very challenging and exciting. I used to PvP on Runescape and my heart would pound so hard my tshirt was moving. I loved that. I realize not everyone is like me, but most people like some excitement and challenges and goals to work toward, other than boring grinding solo stuff and an easy game.

Now if you can reduce bots, scammers, etc. then I'm all for that but just to try to make a game easier for casual players, hmmm... I don't think that will work out well.

29-Jan-2023 22:17:01

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The GE tax was poorly executed and the general process of justifying its use leaves much to be desired so I wouldn't really call it the fairest and least discriminatory option. They need to do something about droptables and alching if they want to properly address inflation. The tax is just stalling for time.

It may not be paying anything IRL but the GE tax is functionally still a tax in the sense that the GE/game is charging you a fraction of your sales income for its use. The fee for bond conversion gets called a tax for similar reasons. The problem isn't calling it that so much as the at times ill fitting comparisons to IRL tax discussion when trying to talk about its problems. Calling it convenience fee just sounds euphemistic and evasive. Like IRL, it's meant to serve beneficial purpose but the actual application doesn't necessarily succeed at doing so.

I don't think it's fair to brush off the entirety of what people complain about as just whining for no good reason. Many QoL improvements to the game have come from player feedback. It really comes down to how constructive the feedback is, if they're just venting and where player resentment is coming from. The negativity towards PvP comes from many players having had unenjoyable experiences with PKers and griefing where PvP is only fun if you're in top gear and levels picking off vulnerable players who can't fight back. Similarly, the negativity towards PvM comes from a trend for a lot of the game dev focus going to new PvM/bossing content while other content gets less or no content. Entire skills are in need of updates to modernize them and players have been asking for minigames to get QoL updates for years even before they went dead from neglect.

There are a couple threads discussing the GE tax you can look at for an idea of what people are saying about it. The constructiveness varies but there are problems to be had with it.
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31-Jan-2023 03:41:44

Pulseironic
Mar Member 2020

Pulseironic

Posts: 361 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
[#ZHDJ2632L] said :
I was undwr the impression that the game being so old and the playerbase also in general having decade old accounts, they are all prpbably very rich. For jagex to entice new players they need a much higher rate of inflation thwy have currently to give everyone a more equal standing ground

but for some reason folks on this thread think inflation is a bad thing, which is weird because their reasoning is sound if you dont consider that this is a game with infinite reaources and infinite bank spaces
there is a hard limit on bank spaces. there are tech limitations they arent gonna be able to get around anytime soon.

31-Jan-2023 08:18:10

Xanadeus
Dec Member 2022

Xanadeus

Posts: 3,426 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
"The negativity towards PvP comes from many players having had unenjoyable experiences with PKers and griefing where PvP is only fun if you're in top gear and levels picking off vulnerable players who can't fight back."

For me, this is whining. I played when PvP was very active. I fell victim to some luring and "griefing" myself but you live, learn and figure out ways to avoid it or counter it. I was a mage, vulnerable to a DDS++ attack. Many players would run around with only a DDS they could protect (so nothing to lose) and spec attack me. Sure it was frustrating but I didn't whine to Jagex about it. I just learned to play around it. It wasn't cheating.

If you didn't want to take part in the wildy you didn't have to short of maybe the occasional treasure trail that might take you there or something. Life is full of less than enjoyable experiences. Learning to cope with challenging situations is much better than whining about them demanding changes to make things easier.

Sure some changes are good and necessary. Abusing bugs in the game is not good for example. I am against botting, scamming or cheating or true griefing. I also thing quality of life changes are good such as when banks were added and eventually bank tabs for more space.

I cannot respect people who whine about death cost, or the wildy or expensive items. These things can all be overcome and are only challenges. Now if its something that just cannot be overcome by getting better at the game, that would be different.

31-Jan-2023 19:26:54

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I wouldn't really call it whining. Darkscape died for a reason. If too many players find PVP areas unenjoyable even as a risk/reward situation then you just won't have the numbers to keep the content alive. The main reason I saw put up for why players avoided PVP content was that it tends to be too unbalanced when you're there for non PVP reasons and the PVP tends not to be viable unless you have top tier gear and abilities you can afford to replace. That's the kind of feedback you need to listen to when assessing how to make content more players are willing to engage with. I saw some cool ideas on how to address that kind of thing in some of the wilderness threads.

It's not necessarily about being forced to do the content so much as expressing their reasons for finding a specific piece of content unenjoyable/unbalanced. Back to the original issue, if most new content is geared towards PvM then people who don't PvM are going to want new content for their playstyle too. Same as people who want updates to content they want to engage with but can't or have been waiting years for some specific issue to be fixed. If people are expected to just tough it in silence then they're just going to quit the game. You need feedback like that to get an idea on what players want and are having problems with content-wise.
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Death And Taxes: An Analysis

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