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Chuk

Chuk

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I've never said that a guide should only be for young/new writers. Just illustrating the idea that the current sticky isn't worthless; it does serve a purpose and has a use. But a guide should have more advanced stuff as well, which is why this thread is in the progress of being created. Hopefully it covers both bases.

Basically, I just resent the language you used. To me, 'useless' means that no one can do anything with it, unless you specify that you particularly can't get anything out of it. Broad statements, to me, make it sound like no one can get anything out of it, which I don't agree with.

And then, it could be argued that veteran writers still need some reinforcement of those tips on the guide; my writing instructor in a 400 level university writing class has emphasized several of them, particularly the characters one. Just goes to show everyone, no matter experience, can work on the same things, just at different levels and more detailed.

Anywho, I think we've gotten as far on this topic as we're gonna get, since to me we're sorta thinking the same things, and I just took issue with the way you stated your point. Nothing to really resolve, so hopefully this guide can be at least a bit of what you want it to be.

15-Apr-2012 09:40:58

Chuk

Chuk

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Preliminary Quick Tips List (unexpanded). Please don't post this in this form. Just critique it, add to it, subtract from it, etc.

1) Characters are important! Good characters can fix a bad plot, but good plot can't fix bad characters

2) Good Characters are relatable, even the villains. And all the good guys have flaws.

3) Good characters have motives. What do they want? What drives their actions? Why do they do what they do?

4) Dialogue is very important. Don't use for drivel or chatting. Make sure it's poignant and important.

5) A sudden twist doesn't make a good plot. Stories must come to an end that seems inevitable (at least in hindsight).

6) Something about pacing.

7) Every writer starts somewhere different, whether the idea for the story is a character or maybe an event. Do what works for you.

8) Your world/setting must have boundaries. Everything has to work within the world, so that reader's suspension of disbelief isn't ruined. (example of what NOT to do: time-turner in Harry Potter. Only comes up once, and would've been useful in earlier and later books of the series, etc.)

9) Use good grammar. Should go without saying, but if it's hard to read the story because of mechanical issues, the reader will never figure out whether you have good characters or good plot.


I'm sure I'm missing some, and if you think any of these are bad and can justify it, this is here to be critiqued and perfected. All add another sentence or two on each of 'em at the very least some other time. Just wanted to get this out there. Oh, also consider the order tips should be posted in.

15-Apr-2012 09:51:10 - Last edited on 15-Apr-2012 10:47:22 by Chuk

Areno3

Areno3

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Yeah, I know what you're saying. I really didn't mean 'useless' in that sense, but I guess that's how it came across. It does have a single use, but I wished to broaden it to uses, rather than just one use.

Lol, I just can't get over how all the good writers on this damn forum are in college! I'm still in high school... :(

15-Apr-2012 15:38:28

Cozmic

Cozmic

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That's a pretty good list, Chuk. Do you think these tips should be divided into categories, such as characters and plot?

Delnaz, you may want to look into dual-enrollment if you're interested in college level classes.

15-Apr-2012 18:14:29 - Last edited on 15-Apr-2012 18:16:13 by Cozmic

Poller5
Dec Member 2023

Poller5

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A bunch of thoughts, at least somewhat organized:

When you do sticky this, re-doing it is essential, if just for neatness. If we’ve got people submitting content, you don’t want it twice in the thread, and removing all the discussion over the actual construction of the guide gives it a much more official feel.

Delnaz, I’d be very much interested in your opinions on YFS, or, properly, Your First Story, a guide which was stickied that goes into great depth on many topics. Coz thinks it’s too heavy and extensive, but as the actual target audience, your opinion would be most valuable.

I think you’ve done this, Coz, but definitely make sure you incorporate the existing Creative Writing Guide. I’d, personally, probably keep it all together, and keep it near the beginning; there are people who will want little more than the simple but precise hints that it has to offer.

"I, honestly, don't think that I (or most of us) are qualified to write anything incredibly comprehensive. If you have the dedication to read something very long, then you may want to look into buying a book."

In regards to that, there’s a lot of middle ground between a barebones guide and an extensive and technical guide to writing. A guide that runs the gamut from simple tips to more in-depth instruction is going to be much more valuable than one with a narrower focus. Besides, this is free no matter how comprehensive it gets, and (at least in theory) the people who write it will be around to discuss the points they make if others take issue with them or they’re simply unclear.

17-Apr-2012 08:33:21 - Last edited on 17-Apr-2012 08:35:10 by Poller5

Poller5
Dec Member 2023

Poller5

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Taking a look at a couple of your tips, Chuk:

“1) Characters are important! Good characters can fix a bad plot, but good plot can't fix bad characters.”
~~~
To my eyes, plot is the paramount issue within a story. Even if there are situations where a great character can elevate a mediocre plot, I hesitate to include any advice that makes it sound like plot is anything but the absolute key to your story.

“4) Dialogue is very important. Don't use for drivel or chatting. Make sure it's poignant and important.”
~~~
Your first point is more correct, to my eyes, than even you accept. Drivel and chatting can be great ways to help build a character, especially the latter. All dialogue needn’t be poignant just as all scenes needn’t be poignant. Only if the characters come second to the plot should dialogue be restricted (as in many of my own pieces).

17-Apr-2012 08:33:39

Chuk

Chuk

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I may, at some point in the future, provided I remember, go into more depth on what prompted me to give tip number one, but I can't be coherent enough tonight to do my point justice.

On point number two, all I'm trying to get across is that, for the most part, conversations that consist of small talk aren't really necessary. Stuff like this:

"Hey."

"Hi."

"How's it going?"

"Oh, it's going. Haven't been doing much. Yourself?"

"Oh, I've just been working. I'm on a ship, now, so that's pretty cool."

You could just say, more concisely, and covering the same points: They greeted each other, and Character X explained his job as a deckhand on the ship.

None of what was said in the dialogue characterized. I wish I could remember the exact words of my teacher, which I'm trying to paraphrase, because even though he said it in regard to short stories, I think it rings true for everything. But it would be something that couldn't be contained in its entirety in a quick tip, too, so I'm trying to find the balance.

Of course, as with all rules, there are exceptions.

17-Apr-2012 10:07:42

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