RuneScape Forum Archive | Why Saradomin split his armies

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
The Zarosians never got a breath of relief. After the coup, Zamorak was taken to Forinthry, and the Zamorakians fled, taking defectors and gaining more converts in the meantime. The Zarosians attempted to crush the Zamorakian rebels, but found themselves beset on all sides by the armies of other gods. Gods whom they had previously taken territory from. Gods who considered them a threat due to what they had done to other gods and territories. Gods who wanted the wealth of the empire for themselves.

So after the coup, Zamorak didn’t get too busy on Infernus then, several Mahjarrat being with him? Wasn’t that a relief for the empire’s internal political situation, as Azzanadra drove everyone back, instead of the empire being plunged into complete chaos already? No one had yet given their rightful territories: Drakan was promised Hallowvale, Zemouregal the North, Lucien part of Forinthry, though all were forced to go into hiding instead as long as the Avernic demons were being freed. Never mind not having adequate forces to take on any god alone before his Mahjarrat rejuvenate, and before Drakan gets that piece of territory from where his vampyres can safely breed troops.

To keep those crucial players in the betrayal supporting Zamorak, they had to be coherent and well organized to begin with, and this only their god could do for them once he had returned, and once he had provided them with propaganda of his generosity by giving green light on Hallowvale. Before that happened, none, except the demonic hordes, perhaps, would swing their might on gods for Zamorak. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

04-Mar-2018 22:49:57

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
Saradomin falls into all these camps. The Zarosian Empire had grown close to his borders. We know that the Zarosians had taken and converted Saradominist territories in the past despite the stalemate they appeared to be at at the end of the 2nd age. We know that Zarosian forces struck down poorly armed Saradominists just before the coup. And we know that Saradomin knew that Zaros had just been struck down.

This stalemate was exactly thanks to Saradomin pouring his resources (which were fewer than in the Third Age) into and close by Hallowvale’s defence. I get it, an overconfident Saradomin, having secured the Catalyst, is looking at his own future abroad, convinced that the future generations for which his troops, armed massive amounts of fragile Icyene coming from New Domina, and some humans (both mentally and physically, respectively) , would be battling enemies with strong magical affinities to claim said territory, and would benefit from his conquests in the long run.

Hguoh said :
I also find myself doubtful that Zamorak had managed to reclaim the more Southern Zarosian territories by the time Hallowvale was taken (~8 centuries after the city was founded, so early in the God Wars) or the Battle for the Ritual Site (purported to have occurred early in the God Wars) as the frontlines in the God Wars were famously slow to move. Zamorakian forces were far away from Hallowvale, Zarosians were tied up dealing with invading armies, and other gods were busy carving up the empire. Saradomin's territories should have been safe.

Whatever one makes of it, it turns out that one god got fooled by the other. Saradomin, wanting the tech for himself, then thinks of once more overextending his forces, not against Zarosians but against still relatively weak though fast-growing Zamorakians as well. Supposing Zamorak got the northern part of Forinthry, Saradomin backstabbed him for that. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

04-Mar-2018 22:52:26

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
Pretty sure Ashuelot Reis' story isn't too accurate given Nex was imprisoned in her own home.

And Ghorrock wasn't a significant military or resourceful target. It's a fortress in a notably cold climate (not yet the excessively icy wasteland we know it as) , surrounded by mountains that make attacking it difficult, and is fairly far away from the territory of other gods. Ghorrock fell to nobody because nobody wanted Ghorrock.

That makes sense if the frostenhorn had always remained in Zarosian possession, starting at Senntisten until both armies crushed the city, which would force the matriarch to retreat with the few but powerful remaining resources until ending up at Ghorrock, that, until then a useless fortress, served as a last resort. This begs the question then: is it reasonable to think Saradomin suspected Zamorak took from him that valuable tech he wanted so bad himself, then “backstabbed” him?

Take that and a lust for payback over Hallowvale’s loss to Drakan’s vampyre race, which went along with Zamorak’s army, alongside others Saradomin’s paranoia likely playing a role as well, as he wonders what happened to Senntisten’s remaining arsenal, thinking to have been duped by Zamorak who supposedly took the valuables with him.

In reality, Senntisten would merely have a symbolic value for Zamorak (the capital city, where the mystical betrayal took place, only a minor threat with Azzanadra disposed of). Saradomin’s misplaced furiosity eventually gets at his ally, attacking the city and claiming it as Saranthium, though not finding what he expected, he eventually goes to war with Zamorak and cutting northwards through Forinthry. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

04-Mar-2018 22:52:46

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
We are told Saradominist Forces stuck around at least long enough to build the Temple of Lost Ancients and bury Nex's palace. We are given little indication that he made any attempt at controlling the Ritual Site himself or even knew of its significance. For all appearances, his interests were in removing Nex and her sizable portion of the remaining Zarosian military.

Yet, conveniently, the ritual plateau had to be secured by either the Zarosian or Zamorakian Mahjarrat faction to rejuvenate for the next battle against the remaining Zarosians in Forinthry. Who were being rejuvenated, then, the Zamorakians? And more conveniently, Zamorakians get a free hand and valuable time to expand their northern part of Forinthry, while Saradomin is busy trapping Nex.

Hguoh said :
That's also why it makes no sense for Drakan to be operating under Zamorak's orders when he attacked Hallowvale. You're also assuming they started out in Viggora's Folly (named as such because it sank into the swamp it was built on). We know the Zamorakians were backed into a corner before Zamorak returned and brought the demons with him and that other gods had already conquered much of the Empire's territory. Given that we know the Zarosians were hunting them down, at least when able, it's less likely that the Zamorakians ended up in any fortress near the capital. More likely, they ended up further north, away from the capital. I'd guess they were holing up in what would eventually be the Mage Arena or Rogue's Castle.

True, yet it doesn’t make sense either for the vampyre race under Drakan to continuously serve in Zamorak’s army, starting from Hallowvale’s takeover until the battle for the godsword (very late in the wars), implying there was clear consensus between the two throughout the whole wars. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

04-Mar-2018 22:53:05

Byzantinist

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Wahisietel said :
I do not think Saradomin and Zamorak's alliance in regards to the remnants of the Zarosian empire was anything more than "hey, if you wanna go capture Zaros's territory, I won't get in your way".

With Zamorak’s mission on Infernus, there was a very marvelous situation when he had to gather his new followers, and could not yet start a God Wars: pushed back, they were almost completely disarmed (few Mahjarrat, no demons, disorganized vampyres and humans, etc.)

It is very important to know what Saradomin said at his alliance with Zamorak. Even if we did not know what he said , though, we see what he did - and that sheds far more light on his designs. The point is, for Saradomin’s armies to be able to ignite a war that has broken out on Gielinor, somebody had to alert them about a possible ritual and Nex’s location before the war got underway, meaning that signal had to go out when their alliance was agreed to.

Any attempt to fix a date certain for the onset of the God Wars and the time Saradomin entered it... inescapably leads us to that fateful day on the battle for the Ritual Plateau. Clearly, both gods made plans for conquering Gielinor: taking care of the Nex prob early in the war, while his allywas still on the sidelines, Saradomin then let the remaining rival gods exhaust one another, and throw onto the scales the full might of his armies.

After they had taken up arms together against the remnants of Senntisten and Forinthry, the greatest coup Saradomin’s diplomacy ever scored and the most brilliant triumph for him throughout his extraordinary life. After the two gods agreed to slay their common enemy, Saradomin had, in fact, pulled on Zamorak the biggest swindle of the Third Age. After the Zarosian enemy was utterly destroyed by their combined might, Zamorak had an instantaneous three-front war. Right from the start, Zamorak thus fell into the trap that meant he could only lose the war (and lose he did). Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

04-Mar-2018 22:53:20

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
You're assuming Zamorak made his intentions clear. Even if we grant the assertion of Zamorak intending to topple Saradomin next, Zamorak could have very well have hidden that.

Drakan takes Hallowvale? Well, Zamorak and the main body of his forces are clearly tied up far more North, and he has little reason split his forces while up against the armies of other gods. So Drakan comes off as a rogue agent.

Can Zamorak help put down his rabid dog? Sure, as soon as he can actually spare the forces to do so. Capturing Senntisten and it's infrastructure gets Zamorak both geographically and economically in a better position to aid against Drakan.

Zamorak’s followers at the end of the Second Age predicted a prolonged conflict. Such prospects they did not find frightening. Some did not last to see the Zaros’s fall. Eventually, Zamorak stepped forward to pick up the “torch”. At the very beginning of the Third Age, his close allies in the betrayal came out in favor of defeat of the empire, though others opposed his claim to power. Good news, then, that the gods would wreck and impoverish their territories, beat some of their armies and trample on imperial shrines. In a destitute, defeated country, it was so much easier to turn an imperialist war into a social war. So let the storm rage, the fiercer, the better.

At first, not many did come to the fore, so the prospects for global revolution slipped away into never-never land. Very well, if one can’t have world revolution, let’s at least start tearing up the social fabric somewhere, anywhere. Can’t rip it to shreds worldwide? Let’s, then, leave in tatters at least one society. No matter which, first grab one (and Drakan would wittingly and cruelly apply this philosophy on Icyene), then use it as a base for starting a global war and revolutions everywhere. Then, Zamorak’s powerful armies would rise up against the rest of the world, sparking unrest and uprisings in Forinthry. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

04-Mar-2018 22:53:55 - Last edited on 05-Mar-2018 09:18:27 by Byzantinist

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
I could definitely see that, but, again, Zamorak insists that Saradomin betrayed him and broke the alliance, and Saradomin made no attempt to deny this when it was brought up (instead opting to egg Armadyl and Bandos on to execute Zamorak).

No god could always be in complete readiness for war, like a soldier cannot hold three swords in their hands. If you start mobilization, it’s like military pregnancy: once you’re there, there’s no going back to split, think nor go to the drawing board. In the Second Age not all Icyene were on Gielinor, very strange thing, against Zaros’s entire military might, no full mobilization, not even against strong far outnumbering Mahjarrat, vampyre, Avernic, Chtonian demons, humans,.

For this rule, there came an exception you had some Icyene living on New Domina, some living in Hallowvale, Gielinor. As the situation was quite orderly and stable before, many Icyene had well-organized, some peaceful, private lives, like family, more leisure and spare-time. For many life was quite convenient, but as soon as the Third Age began, Saradomin stopped to care of what was convenient for them or not, distancing himself from “mere mortal matters”: his future was at stake.

Before the dawn of the new age they had quite a peaceful life, and we were doing well against the many other gods, so for non-militarized Saradominists it was very surprising, and came as quite a shock to everybody else. If I was an Icyene officer in Saradomin’s army, I would ask myself, why, and what’s the god of order up to? We must come to understand logic of Saradomin’s system, see why they lived peacefully and well defended for so long, how he then overlooked Hallowvale’s importance to extend his domain over the crumbling empire, essentially overextending troops, in order to find more artifacts (it's said he tiij held the Catalyst, and the crown of course) for the sake of his next godhood tier, not his Icyene people. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

04-Mar-2018 22:59:37

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
You're assuming few participants. There were many gods who once inhabited Gielinor prior to the God Wars largely reduced that number to the big 4 active gods who played major roles in the God Wars. We know Bandosians remain on what was once Forinthry, but that Bandos didn't arrive on Gielinor until the God Wars were in full swing, so some other god could have been there and invaded Forinthry from the mountain range to it's West. We're given little indication as to who controlled the land around Asgarnia or Lumbridge (though the Zarosians at least raided the area around where Lumbridge would come to be).

Here, by contrast, is how things stood: Forinthry had been divided not solely by Zamorak’s armies, but between Saradomin’s as well for a long time. It is on Zamorak, though, that blame is pinned for driving the war through propaganda. He seemed but a blameless victim of Zamorak’s evil and mighty forces, and subsequently a liberator of Gielinor.

Though Saradomin's forces perpetrated within the empire’s domain crimes of equal, if no greater magnitude, yet for some reason the triumvate’s gods’ members, much later, did not declare war on Saradomin. Again, he got the war he wanted: people were killing each other, destroying each other’s cities and fortresses, while Saradomin stayed bashing his enemies’ heads together, then one against another. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

04-Mar-2018 23:00:06 - Last edited on 04-Mar-2018 23:04:13 by Byzantinist

Byzantinist

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Ascertes said :
I think part of Saradomin's problem was one of logistics. Saradomin's territories were relatively spread out, with known holds in Hallowvale and Entrana (I can't actually recall any others at the start of the God Wars,) which were not exactly close together. Sure, Saradomin can teleport troops around, but there has to be a limit on this otherwise I think we would have seen it far more often.

I think Saradomin's ultimate goal was to acquire as much territory as possible in a short span of time, forge some alliances and fortify the new territory before hostilities would inevitably resume. In a way, it was a gamble that did pay off in the end.

On a side note, IIRC the Saradominists were actually winning against Drakan's incursion into Hallowvale; it was a covert infiltration that spelled the downfall. If Drakan could have won through sheer military might, I would like to believe he would have done so, being all about primal instincts and stuff.

Not saying there’s anything rationally wrong with that particular plan, though it’s quite odd from a moral standpoint. Never mind his and Zamorak’s philosophies being polar opposites, but also supporting eachother entire armies, dependable on the very same evil creatures on which the vile Zaros relied (Mahjarrat, vampyre, demons, etc.), his ally using questionable methods. For example, Drakan’s vampyre taking Hallowvale were conscripted in the very same armies which were used to help Saradomin take the empire down, not forgetting that Saradominists sacrificed themselves at the ritual plateau for Zamorak’s Mahjarrat.

It was a tough fight for the Vampyres, agreed. The question remains, though, how and why did they attack there and then so early on in the god wars, right after lonely Saradomin had cleared Nex from Forinthry, leaving the way for the North open to be infested by the Zamorakians, then, while Saradomists went south to gain possession over the Zarosian arsenal. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

04-Mar-2018 23:01:28

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :
Mahjarrat are formidable yes, but not unstoppable by any means (as we've clearly witnessed)...

And this is even before we consider the weaknesses of the Mahjarrat: they are few, and they are fragile. By the time the God Wars came about, there weren't many Mahjarrat left, and for all their power, they've proven quite able to die in combat and be imprisoned for extended periods of time. Normally, this wouldn't be that big of an issue for a race, but Mahjarrat had notable difficulties reproducing and needed to sacrifice at least one of their number on a regular basis in a specific manner.

Overextending with them the way you speak of could easily mark the end of their species.

Agreed, take one and they're absolutely vulnerable, even to humans, of course, you're right, supposing they've not rejuvenated for a while. Take some together, however, and you could imagine they could be potentially stronger than Nex alone (taking into account that one of the strongest, Azzanadra had been equally powerful), so it's doubtless that even some weaker ones combined could her take out. Never mind that trying taking to Nex out was risky as hell, luring her into a cave would be a walk in the park compared to, say, humans.

Without demons and vampyre ready yet to serve as the first echelon (cannon fodder), it's understandable that the Mahjarrat did not risk it, or yes, by god wars end they could be dead. Though essentially we see that the Mahjarrat were used as elite troops , since they were usually deployed at critical moments of battle, and had played a decisive role in the wars, sometimes as managers, sometimes as brute force, sometimes as tools for scare tactics (frightening, both in appearance and terms of power). Now imagine facing a lot of Mahjarrat, would you retreat, or fight until mortally wounding some and taking them with you to the grave, having been named death itself, or run away like cause of some human soldiers? Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

07-Mar-2018 19:54:37

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Why Saradomin split his armies