RuneScape Forum Archive | Why Saradomin split his armies

Dec

2005

A Mad Hatter

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Byzantinist said :
Could you tell me more about the catalyst’s whereabouts at the time Saradomin's army arrived at the Ritual Plateau? (I always thought the god of order took it when Zamorak left.)

I don't think we have a reliable timeline much less a list of where Zaros was keeping his powerful artifacts like that stashed, so no, I can't. But we do know that the Catalyst also changed hands quite a few times during the course of the God Wars, so it's not too far of a stretch to say that someone from Zaros' camp with the power to manage it (like Nex) would be capable of taking it back from Saradominist control under the proper circumstances in the early days.

Byzantinist said :
Do you believe it was necessary to slam an axe into an outnumbered Nex’s back, just when it was preparing for a battle against Zamorak's Mahjarrat, without looking after the Icyene?
If Saradomin tried to stave off the start of a war between some rival Mahjarrat, that's like saying he tried to light a fire next door, so that his own house would burn later than the neighbor’s.

This is Nex we're talking about. Taking out something as dangerous as that thing as early as you can is just a better strategic move than letting it sit and run the risk of it not only decimating someone else's faction, but eventually run the risk of it turning its attention towards you at a time when you have fewer potential allies around.

Byzantinist said :
My question is: if Zamorak, with all his expertise and inside information of the other Zarosian generals, their strategies, tactics, behavior, etc. did not come to protect to his precious Mahjarrat, is it possible he was busy still collecting his Avernic demons on Infernus?

My understanding is that it took some time for him to get back from Infernus because of dealing with a civil war there. Depending on where all this falls on the timeline, I'd say that's possible

^+^ Antediluvian of the Draculesti Bloodline ^+^

^+^ If the Gods see fit to curse us with the Blood, then we shall raise ourselves above them ^+^

02-Mar-2018 01:09:47

Dec

2005

A Mad Hatter

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Byzantinist said :

With the schism already there, shouldn't Saradomin rather apply "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" rule and let Zamorakian and Zarosian mahjarrat battle it out with Nex? While remaining tightly locked down in Hallowvale, strictly speaking, he could have maintained the status quo, as he perfectly fended himself off against Zarosian hordes in Second Age. Sacrificing those Saradominist soldiers for the Ritual Plateau venture seemed quite risky, as he only narrowly succeeded in finally locking Nex down, and again this he did all alone.

And let the Zamorakians get control of territory and technology/artifacts that could go to his side instead? Even taking into account that Nex is pretty damn powerful as it is to the point where it needed 4 armies worth of people to seal away in the GWD, there was territory up for grabs at the very least that Saradomin could've wanted because he lost some of his to Zarosian expansion in the Second Age.

Byzantinist said :

*snip*

The Vampyres are pretty much their own faction from what I can tell. Their alliance with Zamorak was for their own convenience only, so I think a more likely scenario was that Zamorak supplied some help to the vampyres in some fashion in return for their help in overthrowing Zaros, but he didn't give the express order to go after Hallowvale. That would be Drakan's idea that just happened to work out for Zamorak.

Byzantinist said :
*Snip*

No idea, but keep in mind Saradomin had Armadyl and I think a few other gods on his side too. Probably because he didn't fully trust Zamorak in the long run (or at the very least he was probably planning for that. I forget when he sided with Armadyl tbh). I like to think it was both of their ideas to a degree, but for different reasons in the end.

^+^ Antediluvian of the Draculesti Bloodline ^+^

^+^ If the Gods see fit to curse us with the Blood, then we shall raise ourselves above them ^+^

02-Mar-2018 01:36:49 - Last edited on 02-Mar-2018 01:49:39 by A Mad Hatter

Nov

2012

Summerleaf

Posts: 3,313 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Following

02-Mar-2018 23:57:41

Oct

2005

Wahisietel

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I do not think Saradomin and Zamorak's alliance in regards to the remnants of the Zarosian empire was anything more than "hey, if you wanna go capture Zaros's territory, I won't get in your way". You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

03-Mar-2018 00:03:18

Byzantinist

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Hguoh said :

Territories and tech along the way.

The potential to take out one of the greatest remaining military forces of the Zarosian Empire. The same empire that just attacked non-militarized Saradominists just before Zamorak's coup went down.

Some may retort, yes, Saradomin sacrificed some of his people, but also turned out arms to protect those left behind. We have already had occasion to see how utterly unsuited they were to defending his own territory and shielding his own people. They had either to be pressed into roles not scripted for them (human warriors vs Nex, really?) or simply junked.

Right when Saradomin was creating huge weapon arsenals to expand to far-away enemy territory, he left the southeastern front exposed, which was as close to Zarosian fortresses he could get. As he felt lucky, with Zarosians being in complete confusion, he then then went out on a wild hunt, while Zamorak sat back and took the precious time to get at those territories first, having cleared Nex from his path.

In other words, the blue faction loses time, while the red one wins some , taking part of Forinthry for itself already. Don’t you agree that every Zarosian fortress in and under Forinthry taken by Zamorak would be a future obstacle for Saradomin? As some of those various inventions and artifacts which Zamorak had already seen and studied, it seemed like their roles were inverted, i.e. Saradomin exhaustingly punching through Nex at the ritual site, while Zamorak could take as much territory as he saw fit in the meantime.

Overconfident men usually overextend their armies into eventual catastrophe. That could be a reason for Saradomin for requiring Armadyl and Bandos to take on his former ally at the point Zamorak had become much stronger than him, the latter quickly taking many territories and artifacts, as he was the highest-ranking general to have been in the know of Zaros's closely guarded military projects and tactics. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

03-Mar-2018 19:50:06

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :

Aiding his ally Zamorak gain footholds at a time when Zamorak had only recently returned and had minimal followers and was busy fighting other gods trying to take the Empire's territory for their own.

Also, leveling the wall? Not sure I know what you're talking about.

So, basically, as the Zarosians were having a sigh of relief, believing war staved off due to Zamorak’s slow resurgence, Saradomin struck first as part of the bargain, seemingly getting intel from his fresh ally. As no one was flagging possible surprises and complications, Saradomin moved his colossus towards the Ritual site at precisely the time Zamorak was embroiled in the front’s southern sector, as Saradomin’s forces were being distracted by Nex’s remote army.

Then, realizing Nex is unstoppable, at his own army’s output’s expense, Saradomin had managed to lure her in her into the icy prison for the sake of convenience. Then, as Zamorak was fighting close near home, Saradomin used up his reserves to cut through Forinthry’s fortresses (hypothetical walls), though, for some reason, Saradomin failed to besiege Ghorrock, perhaps believing the Zarosian valuables were south, and then Drakan attacked...

Hguoh said :
And, again, Nex was a valuable piece to remove from the war as quickly as possible.

Makes sense if Zamorak, too smart to stay out of jostling with Nex, decided to consolidate his one man rule first in his armies’ ranks, from generals like Drakan and Lucien down to the Avernic demons. Zamorak, though, could seize the spoils while he was still a military midget, his Mahjarrat having their hands free elsewhere. In all irony, though, as "allies", Zamorak's followers immediately overran Saradomin’s sector, as supposed allies, either in an act defiance or desperation, realizing his forces weren’t yet packing the punch they should against the other factions. I sense that an alliance was not yet in place... Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

03-Mar-2018 19:50:48 - Last edited on 03-Mar-2018 19:57:12 by Byzantinist

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
The Zarosian capital was one of the last, if not the last, major bastion of Zarosianism to fall in the 3rd age. Given the apparent division of the Empire's territories by this point (Zamorak at least controlled most of Forinthry, while Saradomin seems to have taken parts of Southern Forinthry), the frontier first moved past Senntisten (largely ignoring/corralling it) swept across the less defended country side, took out most of the Zarosian fortresses, and then turned back to Senntisten.

Yet none of the declared pretenders to power wanted a rival to call the shots for revolution in the remaining empire before the other, and, already being in great military unrest, is cornered between Saradomin and Zamorak.

Now imagine, on the far side of the wall you have living a cannibal who has blared out how he is looking forward to wolfing you down. Satisfied, you have gotten the message loud and clear, and he starts knocking down the partition that sits between your borders. How will you react?

Imagine, next, the cannibal finds breaking the wall a bit difficult and asks you to help him with it, to make his tough job a bit easier. Without your help he will not manage to breach the wall, and will not then be able to feast on you. How would you react to that kind of invitation?

Unfortunately for Zamorak, it took him until that fateful day Saradomin claimed Senntisten for himself. Zamorak would try to outmaneouver Saradomin, but it was too late. Zamorak could hope for no more than brilliant tactical feats while retreating from “Saranthium”, but found himself ground up from all sides.

Some say Saradomin only won thanks to help and cooperation from Armadyl and Bandos. It goes to the heart of what made Saradomin such a towering figure: he, Zamorak's ally number one, managed to exploit other gods to defend him, adding muscle to his authority. Until this very turn of events, Saradomin had wisely feigned neutrality. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

03-Mar-2018 19:51:43

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
It's a matter of priorities really. We know several gods were invading and conquering the territories of the Zarosian Empire. We also know that Zamorak didn't have much territory to speak of when he returned to Gielinor due to the conquest of said gods. Because of this, we can expect Zamorak's forces at this time to have largely been tied up in regaining the empire's territory and holding it.

In reality, then, Zamorak’s already on Gielinor when Saradomin dares to face Nex with his army. If so, why would Saradominist soldiers, who were only on par with Zamorakian troops in both quantity and quality, fight the unstoppable Nex alone? Zamorak’s myth merchants would say: some of our soldiers fought, but, in the beginning they weren’t enough, nor any good, obsolete. No point even paying attention to them, let’s just define the most sophisticated type: the Mahjarrat. Those deployed before the alliance, we’ll just forget about: junk. Here, though, is how this “junk” looked in terms of qualities:

The Mahjarrat’s main advantage was raw, unlimited and abrupt magical power. This feature so overshadowed all others, that it became part and parcel of Zamorak’s army’s designation: they were meant to attack. Everything about them recalled about the few but supremely mobile warriors massed in Zaros's hordes; he vanquished his enemies by using extremely fast moving power. In the Kharadian-Zarosian war, when the Mahjarrat were still on Ichtlarin’s side, they even proved to be so frightening that the highest ranking demons of Zaros’s early army did not wish to face them on the battlefield, offering them to join.

Thanks to those qualities, Zamorak could cursh his foes not merely by numbers, but rather by maneuvering and concentrating Mahjarrat as a magic striking force at break-neck speed, able to move quickly and strike true, sweeping across obstacles and knifing deep into the enemy’s rear, quickly covering vast amounts of terrain. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

03-Mar-2018 19:59:28

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
Presumably, Zamorak's tied up dealing with other gods seeking to conquer, and finds out that the Zarosians are trying to take and hold the Ritual Site with Nex and her army. Normally, he'd be in quite a pickle (due to how that endangers his most powerful followers), but he conveniently has another god with a notable vendetta against the Zarosians and trades the location of one of the most powerful and dangerous Zarosian generals and her army, forges an alliance, and keeps the Mahjarrat safe.

Not confirmed by any means, but it seems to be a plausible explanation of the events that occurred.

Intriguing theses you have there. It is possible Saradomin locked the plateau down for Zamorakian Mahjarrat (who were busy or scared to show up), who could in turn gear up for war against Forinthry. Another possibility is that there was not any agreement between Saradomin and Zamorak yet, so that the former took the initiative, and locked Nex down to keep both rival Mahjarrat from benefiting.

The Zamorakian Mahjarrat, somehow rejuvenated, were then being ordered to massively conduct offensives on Zarosian fortresses, whose locations, and battle tactics and possibly even artifacts they knew very well of, as they had served in the empire beforehand. Saradomin, after his tough venture, was reorganizing his army to strike Forinthry up North, taking the rest of the valuables for himself.

As Saradomin was not only giving the Mahjarrat strength, but also precious time for covering Zarosian territory, with plenty of inventions, technology artifacts, essential for reinforcing and maintaining Saradomin’s own war-effort, much going to the Zamorakian camp which knew exactly what their “ally" would be getting, would Saradomin give Zamorakian Mahjarrat a free hand at rejuvenating? Zamorak could get at the locations and contents of the Zarosian Empire’s arsenal, while said ally was busy trapping Nex, then recovering from Drakan's mess. Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

03-Mar-2018 20:01:37

Byzantinist

Posts: 337 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Hguoh said :
You seem to be misunderstanding events. At the beginning of the God Wars, Zamorak had next to no territory, most of it having been taken by the forces of other gods prior to his return to Gielinor. Upon his return, he set about reclaiming the territories of the Zarosian Empire, which largely consisted of Forinthry, far to the north of Hallowvale and away from Saradominist territories. This demand on his forces makes it very easy to pass Drakan off as or for Drakan to have actually been a rogue agent given how far away he operated from the Zamorakian frontlines.

Then it seems the remaining Zamorakians were spending some time in Viggora’s huge fortress and possibly Kharyrll to prepare for an attack... though on whom did Zamorak (especially Drakan’s vampyes) really first declare hostilities? As you may see, the only bordering area of those seemingly Zamorakian strongholds was Senntisten... And Hallowvale, right next door.

Wouldn’t it make more sense, then, if Zamorak's vampyre would go north-westwards, against the thin-spread Zarosian formations in Forinthry (if not already beaten), instead of driving a wedge through Saradomin’s sacred Icyene city(Chronologically speaking, for all we know, the latter took place right after the Battle for the Ritual Plateau, that's why it's so apalling when being allies).

Judging on Drakan’s untrustworthiness, lust for power and land, I imagine him bargaining with his master for support, something like: “ now that we, since that glorious day, have granted you our unwavering loyalty in the betrayal of the Empty Lord, shall we tend to expanding our promised lands? I suggest, as Senntisten is still holding strong, striking at Saradomin’s fortress nearby, while he’s northbound and exposed, wishing to gather our closely guarded secrets, of which we already dispose, my Lord. My vampyres will be able to hold a base from there, and, then I can give you my most powerful legions. ” Sometimes one must operate within the

shadows

to serve the

light

. For a man makes no noise over a good deed, but passes on to another as a vine to bear fruits again in season, in order that the world may ever be new.

03-Mar-2018 20:05:28

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Why Saradomin split his armies