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Tumeken alive or dead?

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Swolllliosis

Swolllliosis

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For your first argument, traditionally, pyramids are built during the pharaoh's lifetime by decree, so you might be right that the Mastaba have been built during Senliten's reign. However, whether it was actually finished before she passed away or picked off to finish with her son is a mystery, since she don't quite know how she died. This still allows for gaps for headcanon, though, because those huge things take an enormous time to make.

Also note that the building of the burial complex only finished when the Pharaoh died, if we base this stuff on irl Egyptian stuff. It was the Pharaoh's successor who ultimately finished the inner tomb and buried their predecessor. Why have traps, urns, sarcophagus, and statues already in place to already collect dust just waiting for the Pharaoh to die or be robbed by plunderers?

According to Senliten, it is the High priest of Icthlarin who performs rituals of dissembling of the souls into separate parts and performing resurrection rituals, as well. We sort of performed the resurrection process on Senliten during Missing my Mummy, but she exclaimed that only a highly skilled and authorized priest of Icthlarin should only attempt the resurrection ritual. Anyone else that did it, especially in the wrong order, could put haphazard effects on the Pharaoh in question, such as problems with their psyche, you could say?
Owner of the first 6th age church of Tumeken
| Twitter: @RSTemekel

27-Jun-2017 05:21:58

Swolllliosis

Swolllliosis

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Second argument, she said the "scabarites of my day." Perhaps the scabaras of her day were just general scholars that worshiped Tumeken. That's like an old person saying the smartphone of their day were books. Maybe they were unnamed at her time, or perhaps it wasn't a whole religious sect devoted to wisdom itself, yet? Leela might have told Senliten who Scabaras was and she just paired them up with all scholars in general.

Second dialogue you posted said: "Scabaras has changed since you last were able to communicate with the world." We know Senliten has some supernatural link to the desert.

"I sense things are not as they were, that there is dissent where there once was cooperation. The ways of the greater powers are mysterious, yet this is something that worries me greatly."

She could feel the lack of desert monkeys, Apmeken's "grace returning to the lands," and Crondis's "restraint returning to the desert." She feels them using some pharoah-in-limbo-resurrection magic, and it does not mean the demigods were around in her time. Perhaps restoring the statues that were added to her tomb by her son gives her some psychic link on the desert? Maybe she gained knowledge of the aspects during Osmumten's visits to her tomb? Because like I said, she explicitly does not mention the aspects in any of her "flashback" stories or makes direct statement that they were around at all, yet somehow knows just various facts about the aspects (probably from her psychic 'sense', her son's visits, or Leela updating her). She just doesn't know to the extent of Jex or the Sphinx, which is why she has repeatedly sent us to see them.
Owner of the first 6th age church of Tumeken
| Twitter: @RSTemekel

27-Jun-2017 05:22:13

Swolllliosis

Swolllliosis

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Third Argument

I wouldn't take the Tumeken's Dream lore story too seriously. It's a myth that has been passed down through generations, and it could have been distorted, plus to top it off, Reldo did translate it to the common tongue using little knowledge on Menaphite language. Even if the text is perfectly true, who is the author of this tale? Did they follow Tumeken around in the desert? Did they even comprehend what what Tumeken was even doing or just interpretted how they saw it?

The tale also mentions the events all occuring in the desert, which did not exist until Tumeken went kaboom, which further adds to my theory. What I think these "dreams" are are his divine essence floating through the desert after being blown up, coalescing into sentient entities, similar to Aggie. He wasn't dreaming. He was probably in some limbo state.

The demigods he created might as well have been an act he did so that he remained relevant in the desert post-mortem without being physically alive, that I can agree.
Owner of the first 6th age church of Tumeken
| Twitter: @RSTemekel

27-Jun-2017 05:22:25 - Last edited on 27-Jun-2017 05:31:13 by Swolllliosis

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Swolllliosis said :
For your first argument, traditionally, pyramids are built during the pharaoh's lifetime by decree, so you might be right that the Mastaba have been built during Senliten's reign. However, whether it was actually finished before she passed away or picked off to finish with her son is a mystery, since she don't quite know how she died. This still allows for gaps for headcanon, though, because those huge things take an enormous time to make.

Sure, a little teeny tiny gap that maybe, just maybe, Osmumten finished the interior chamber of Senliten's masataba and decided to add statues of the lesser gods that only recently appeared and played no role in Senliten's life because... Reasons?

Pardon me if I prefer to not make such leaps.

Swolllliosis said :
According to Senliten, it is the High priest of Icthlarin who performs rituals of dissembling of the souls into separate parts and performing resurrection rituals, as well. We sort of performed the resurrection process on Senliten during Missing my Mummy, but she exclaimed that only a highly skilled and authorized priest of Icthlarin should only attempt the resurrection ritual. Anyone else that did it, especially in the wrong order, could put haphazard effects on the Pharaoh in question, such as problems with their psyche, you could say?

Also according to Senliten:

The process is more often twisted
rather than mistakes being made - after all, Icthlarin is a deity and thus rather able to make good any minor mistakes
by his devout followers.

27-Jun-2017 10:32:18

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Swolllliosis said :
Second argument, she said the "scabarites of my day." Perhaps the scabaras of her day were just general scholars that worshiped Tumeken. That's like an old person saying the smartphone of their day were books. Maybe they were unnamed at her time, or perhaps it wasn't a whole religious sect devoted to wisdom itself, yet? Leela might have told Senliten who Scabaras was and she just paired them up with all scholars in general.

Except that's not how people speak. People don't say, 'The smartphones of my day were books,' they say, 'Back in my day, we didn't have smartphones to entertain ourselves. If we wanted portable entertainment, we'd read a book.' There's an acknowledgement that the two topics (smartphone vs book) aren't the same thing.

Again, the quote says:

The Scabarites of my day were mainly scholars and intellectuals – the sky, retiring types.

There is no such concession here when it comes to the identity of the group. It is very specifically the Scabarites.

27-Jun-2017 10:48:42 - Last edited on 27-Jun-2017 11:58:31 by Hguoh

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Swolllliosis said :
Second dialogue you posted said: "Scabaras has changed since you last were able to communicate with the world." We know Senliten has some supernatural link to the desert.

"I sense things are not as they were, that there is dissent where there once was cooperation. The ways of the greater powers are mysterious, yet this is something that worries me greatly."

She could feel the lack of desert monkeys, Apmeken's "grace returning to the lands," and Crondis's "restraint returning to the desert." She feels them using some pharoah-in-limbo-resurrection magic, and it does not mean the demigods were around in her time. Perhaps restoring the statues that were added to her tomb by her son gives her some psychic link on the desert?

Or, and stay with me now, she can feel the difference between the gods' presence and their absence? Especially since she attributes the development of these qualities to the people forsaking their gods:

Senliten: Leela tells me that the desert is a cruel, harsh and unfriendly place. My descendants turned their back on the goddess of friendship, so what else could they expect?

27-Jun-2017 10:52:37

Hguoh

Hguoh

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Swolllliosis said :
I wouldn't take the Tumeken's Dream lore story too seriously. It's a myth that has been passed down through generations, and it could have been distorted, plus to top it off, Reldo did translate it to the common tongue using little knowledge on Menaphite language. Even if the text is perfectly true, who is the author of this tale? Did they follow Tumeken around in the desert? Did they even comprehend what what Tumeken was even doing or just interpretted how they saw it?

Never said I was taking it literally. Ever hear the expression: at the heart of every legend there is a grain of truth? We know the setting isn't likely accurate, but we also know that other aspects are (like the duties of each god).

27-Jun-2017 10:58:27

Swolllliosis

Swolllliosis

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What I want to know is how Senliten knew so much about her son's progress with the kingdom while she was dead. That's the part that throws me off. On the day of Tumeken's end, Tumeken told Osmumten to stop visiting his mom in the tomb for guidance. Yet, Senliten was somehow aware that Tumeken said this. She also somehow knew her son was assassinated by usurpers that were closely loyal to him. I'm assuming she was constantly awoken by her son as an undead as she is now during Osmumten's reign. Perhaps Osmumten told her about the demigods during one of his visits to the tomb, and requested her son to put statues of them so she could establish a connection to them in the now desert realm? Maybe someone also explained that her son was assassinated? Maybe Osmumten told his mom herself in the afterlife?

I firmly believe the demigods were not around during the time of Senliten's reign. She just does not make a direct statement they were at all, which is strange. However, with the stuff you said, it is entirely possible she gained awareness of them during one of her son's visits or an advisor's, and they constructed statues in her chamber so she could commune with and sense them (remember, the construction of the statues are an integral part to restoring her, probably her ability to sense the desert lands.) She just hasn't ever met them physically before.

Senliten seems to know a lot of random facts about the demigods, perhaps just a broad overview of them, which is why she sends us to Jex and the Sphinx, who probably know more, rather than explaining it herself.
Owner of the first 6th age church of Tumeken
| Twitter: @RSTemekel

27-Jun-2017 11:43:15

Swolllliosis

Swolllliosis

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Oh and here is one proof that Senliten is crazy:

"As we set out on our long journey back home, we took what food and water we needed from the Elid and it sustained us. After these lands became a desert, however, finding food and water became much harder, and so I sought out a genie to create a relic for me with which to locate these things should I ever have need."

She sought a genie to make her a dowsing rod because it got harder to find stuff AFTER the lands turned into a desert. Tumeken didn't turn the land into a desert until after he died, which was during Osmumten's rule and mom's passing.

She might have been in her undead resurrected state during this time, which makes little sense because the undead do not need water and food. I really don't trust Senliten. Her info of historical desert events do not clash at all with the Halloween event. I don't believe we should trust Senliten completely. Aristarchus actually eerily said in Crocodile tears that we shouldn't get all of our information from one source. It might be a jmod hinting that Senliten shouldn't be trusted. Let's admit that something went awry in our attempts to ressurect her. We might have screwed up somewhere, and Icthlarin did not sure as hell showed up to fix things. I believe it was a priest who called in Icthlarin if anything went bad, as I don't think he is aware if some rebirth ritual went screwy. That is sort of his sister's job.


There was clearly a reason why Tumeken told Osmumten to stop getting advice from Senliten right after he blew up. Tumeken might have sensed that her mind was deteriorating beyond his repair, or that resurrection rituals in general were not 100% full-proof, which is a common motif in many works of fiction. Raising the dead willy-nilly would be way too op. There has to be some caveat after being brought back from oblivion.

Take Elora's wand. It has its own caveat of giving people corruption. No one is objectively good.
Owner of the first 6th age church of Tumeken
| Twitter: @RSTemekel

27-Jun-2017 11:55:23 - Last edited on 27-Jun-2017 12:14:56 by Swolllliosis

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