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Juna's Zogre dialogue?

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NachtWeaver

NachtWeaver

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You: "...Those Zogres were disgusting! But I learned how to fight them with brutal arrows and disease balm."

Juna: "Zombie Ogres!? Some of the foulest creatures of
Zamorak
. In the great wars, the zogre armies would repel the forces of
Saradomin
with their stench alone."


-----

I guess I shouldn't have really been surprised due to zombies being mindless servants of Zamorak. But is there a source that says Bandos excommunicated ogres from his army once they were zombified? I can't imagine he'd care. His soldiers were merely pawns and fodder anyways. Don't get me started on the undead goblin priests.

And even then... how would Zamorak even manage to subjugate them? In the case of his necromancers, their thralls are obviously enslaved. But Zogres aren't created through necromancy. I know there's some vague correlation between Zamorak and the Morytanian undead, but we don't know of any ogres living in Morytania in the first place.

I would love some lore/quest explaining the undead. The vampyres are from vampyrium. But what about ghosts, ghouls, skeletons, and zombies? How exactly did they end up under the dominion of Zamorak besides his loyal necromancers' wights?

Now that we have a bottle quest explaining clue scrolls, I can't see why they can't do bottle quests to delve into some other lore holes like the walking dead.
TFW You can't decide between support Zamorak or Zaros.

30-May-2018 07:26:03 - Last edited on 30-May-2018 07:39:10 by NachtWeaver

Ancient Drew

Ancient Drew

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Well, I know that he sold or at least lent out goblin tribes during the God Wars, such as the Saragorgak and Huzamogarb to Saradomin and Zamorak respectively. I wouldn't be surprised if he gave his opponents more of his own soldiers to keep the war going. Zamorak might have had necromancers in as well. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

Pokemon battle? Friend Code: 4614-0426-2439

30-May-2018 09:38:17

Hazeel

Hazeel

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They're zombies, that's why. They don't get to make their own choices. Doesn't matter if you were an Ogre, a citizen of Varrock, or even a White Knight. Now you're a zombie and just an extension of a necromancer's will.

I don't see how they would come to be besides necromancy, but even you want to assume there's some kind of disease, I wouldn't be surprised if necromancers had spells that could turn the dead loyal to them if they kill another necromancer or are working with another necromancer and need to transfer labor.

As far as I can tell, all skeletons and zombies come from necromancy. As for ghosts and ghouls, it could either be necromantic spells binding their loyalty, Zamorak could be utilizing their destructive vengeful nature to his advantage, or they might just flock to him because Saradominists have a stigma against the undead.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

30-May-2018 17:50:07 - Last edited on 30-May-2018 17:55:48 by Hazeel

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

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Nice catch, this is interesting! Now, Bandos's units in Armies of Gielinor prominently feature stalwart ogre(sse)s, jogres and mogres but notably no zogres or skogres. The only such undead ogres of which we know were created by a queer HAM agent's necromantic spell.

It is therefore indeed quite reasonable to argue that the necromancers of Zamorak would visit battlegrounds bearing legions of fallen Bandosians (of course Bandos enjoyed his own soldiers' demise as much as any others') in order to resurrect them to supplement their god's troops.

Don't forget the undead hero resurrected by Lucien that looks like a skeleton version of Bork; basically a skogre.

And Zamorak's using these zogres against Saradomin's troops is of course no surprise.

Kudos for finding this.

PS. Vampyres aren't undead; they can be reverted to human using Guthix balance if they are converts (and wyrds to Icyene) and otherwise they are trueborn vampyres, i.e. a race upon themselves. Ghouls aren't undead either, just savages (I don't want to know how they breed) that have a nasty tendency of hanging around graveyards and the like.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

29-Jul-2018 07:47:13

Uncle Pob

Uncle Pob

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We also need to consider Bando's own views: the deceased originally died because (in Bandos view) they were weak who fell to the strong. Bandos probably had more respect for the enemy units that killed his own than those of his own army who perished.

Bandos only cares for the strong, so his dominion of his troops possibly only lasts while they're alive and on the battlefield. Keeping weak among his number would, after all, do nothing but weaken the whole. That means the corpses of his deceased soldiers were probably very much up for grabs, Bandos not caring what became of them.

It's also worth noting that zogres aren't as strong as living ogres can be: they're not meant to be. They serve as a different kind of troop - they're relentless, feel no pain, obey their commander's will without question, and also creates more of their number through the disease which turns any living being they come into contact with into undead zombies with which to overwhelm the enemy.

Whether a zogre that's been turned has truly died in the first place is a matter of debate, but a change has occurred, and that change will have either caused Bandos to reject and turn his back on those ogres, or altered the ogres in such a way that Zamorak's will is able to override that of Bandos.

That said, few of the gods actually "mind-controlled" their troops directly, and instead relied on things like religion and pride: the troops were loyal because they came to and wished to serve their god. Occasionally, individual troops can change their minds all on their own, and turn traitor by switching sides. This is a major part of the Mahjarrat rebellion against Zaros for example.

But zombies lack their own will. They don't *want* to serve, so they have no natural loyalty to any god. In these cases, they must be forcibly turned to servitude and their nature makes it impossible for them to rebel or fight against that servitude.

01-Aug-2018 05:42:17

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

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Uncle Pob said :
We also need to consider Bando's own views: the deceased originally died because (in Bandos view) they were weak who fell to the strong. Bandos probably had more respect for the enemy units that killed his own than those of his own army who perished.

Bandos only cares for the strong, so his dominion of his troops possibly only lasts while they're alive and on the battlefield. Keeping weak among his number would, after all, do nothing but weaken the whole. That means the corpses of his deceased soldiers were probably very much up for grabs, Bandos not caring what became of them.

Well, not really...I mean, he always used goblins as cannon fodder. Conversely, he would also gladly see very strong soldiers (like ourgs and such) die if the battle was entertaining enough. Basically he'd kill any one of his soldiers in a large battle, provided it's 'fun' to watch.
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

03-Aug-2018 08:36:49

Uncle Pob

Uncle Pob

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Lord Drakan said :
Well, not really...I mean, he always used goblins as cannon fodder. Conversely, he would also gladly see very strong soldiers (like ourgs and such) die if the battle was entertaining enough. Basically he'd kill any one of his soldiers in a large battle, provided it's 'fun' to watch.


That doesn't contradict what I said, it supports it.

Bandos sees the result of battles as "the strong prevailing over the weak", no matter who the participants may be. Additionally, he enjoys battles themselves for their own sake.

When he pits two of his own against each-other, from his point of view whichever one loses is a "weak link" that no longer deserved to be in his army. The elimination of such "weak links" makes for a tighter, more reliably strong army even if the numbers are slightly diminished.

The refusal to fight is also considered a sign of weakness, thus any unit not willing to immediately prove to the Big High War God that they are strong is immediately considered weak, and probably expelled from the army if they aren't brutally slain in a battle they are nonetheless forced to participate in.

The sense of "fun" comes from the extent of the belief he has in those principals: strongly believing that the strong will always come out as the victor, why would he be afraid of risking his troops in this way? If they die, they must have been weak after all.

And Bandos army rarely fights for any reason other than literally to have a battle. Their eye isn't on the prize everyone else is fighting over, but on the spirit of battle itself. Bandos would obviously make the most of these situations, and that is why he betrayed his temporary allies when they sought his aid in seeking the GodSword - Bandos never really cared about the GodSword, though had he obtained it anyway he would have recognized that it would have added to his army's strength.

03-Aug-2018 09:49:29 - Last edited on 03-Aug-2018 09:50:31 by Uncle Pob

Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

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Interesing interpretation, never thought of that. As I perceive it, Bandos doesn't discriminate between strong and weak, only between races he has bred for certain purposes and their tribes, and although each race will be inherently strong or weak relative to the others, as far as Bandos is concerned, he doesn't care who wins (strong or weak) as long as the battle is entertainign for him to watch and enough troops remain for more battles. Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. OSRS: POH ideas & RS3 minigames & achievement ideas !

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

04-Aug-2018 08:04:00

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