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RuneFest Lore [Spoilers, Duh]
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Sending a few quick responses:
Aerak said :
...I'm confused. Infernus and Abbinah are both elemental planes of Smoke?
There's a subtle difference there, similar to the difference between smoke runes and smoke spells (which don't actually require smoke runes to cast). Infernus is a world from the previous revision that was almost, but not entirely, drained of energy in the elder god's consumption of the previous cycle. There are trace elements of ancient smoke, blood and ice magic in a few husks of dead worlds that surround Freneskae, that were later discovered, energised and channelled through further analysis, experimentation and the mastery of more complex catalytic energies. The previous elder gods may have achieved the discovery of other ancient elements, but these are all that remain.
Aerak said :
Neither of which make sense to me btw, because I was expecting Air for Abbinah and Shadow for Infernus.
The elemental planes are for the most part too hazardous and primal to sustain life (other than, say, elementals). The elemental plane of fire, for example, is literally a sea of everburning flame and not much else. It took the combination of those elements to create the components of habitable worlds (atmosphere, moisture, mass, heat, etc).
As I briefly mentioned in the talk, I had earlier drafts that aligned Abbinah to air and then to dust (as a world of floating islands, air and earth as its primary elements made the most sense to me), but Mod Raven and Jack have particular reasons for smoke (air and fire) to be more appropriate (and Raven did mention your conversation about the exposed molten core). Hopefully the answer to that will be revealed in time.
In the meantime, it helped to provide an example of the distinction between the smoke world of Abbinah and the dark world of Infernus that contains the essence of ancient smoke magic.
Gamez X said :
i actually made that picture of the universe they showed, a really unexpected surprise to see it used in official lore!
Hopefully the image credit I included on the slides was visible. (The font wound up being processed into a smaller size than I'd anticipated.) Many thanks for creating the image, Gamez X, and apologies that I didn't contact you in person to get permission to use it. It was a valuable basis for my presentation.
Gamez X said :
I used the information from ingame at the time to determine theres the lower worlds with terrible balance, the 4 elemental paths with themed worlds but still unbalanced, and the higher planes with good balance for high anima production. It was this premise that helped me determine how far up each planet is in the universal path. But jagex seems to be mixing it up in ways that dont make sense.
So, one crucial difference is that I kept your images in their original position (if only to keep the credited artwork intact), and tagged them with the rune for their plane. So their position bordering the central image wasn't intended to reflect their geographical location in the cosmology or how "balanced" they are.
Gamez X said :
i placed new domina (now renamed hallow) on the wen path because its stated to be mostly water with little land
It is still on the Wen path, but also includes an element of water in the origins of the astral rune. Bear in mind that more advanced runes are based on earlier ones, and astral actually flows from Wen/water via the sacral chakra, and Wen having a major investment in the creation of Hallow.
Again, I did have Hallow as a water world in an earlier draft, but we felt it was important that Hallow be represented within one of the higher planes due to the implicit associations that icyene have with angels and how that contrasts with the demons of the lower planes.
Gamez X said :
Then with yubuisk i called it a higher plane because ingame footage from before it became toxic shows it was FULL of lush plants and life. But they called it a low elemental plane, i suspect they're ranking it on only what it is now, not what it was
Yu'biusk became lush, but at its foundation was predominantly wetlands (marshes and swamps). Bear in mind that due to being a mud world, it's a much older world than many of the nature planets, so had longer to develop a hardy range of flora. The elder gods also sometimes returned to their earlier worlds and adapted them using new techniques they'd refined.
Infernus is another such example of returning to touch up an earlier work of art, and that's why there's a blood altar but no known catalytic blood worlds but there is a blood world in the lower planes, and no smoke or ice altar but there are smoke runes. Their earlier drafts were used for different applications.
Sometimes they also disassembled their works and discarded what they couldn't re-use in the abyss, so there may be entire fields of runic evolution that were developed and then destroyed by their creators. (If this seems confusing and not very consistent, that's because it is. The elder gods laboured for aeons on a wide variety of different celestial projects.)
Swolllliosis said :
I don’t get the whole honeycomb/plane thing. Are planes basically different star systems or galaxies? Could we theoretically travel to different planes with a spaceship?
So, think of a plane as a blank canvas upon which the elder gods painted one or more celestial bodies. Planes are also like cells of paint on an artist's palette, with a certain colour/flavour defined by the unique energy of that plane (which also influences the inhabitants of that plane, since they're part of its energy system), which we identify in our simplified spellcasting as runes. There can be multiple planes with the same colour/rune (or barely perceptible shades of that colour/energy).
The elder gods mixed these paints together to create ever more complex works of art to refine their skills and also improve themselves and their tools so they're capable of greater artistry, with the goal of painting the finest work of art they can achieve.
(This is a metaphor and try not to take it too literally.)
If you look up at the night sky from the perspective of a world, you could be seeing the abyss, or you might be seeing other stars and planets confined within that plane, or you might be seeing other stars and planes on the other side of the abyss.
There isn't a definitive answer that applies to all planes, because different planes can operate on entirely different physical laws. On one plane, a sun could rotate around a flat world. It could be carried on the backs of an infinite chain of juggling elephants. There could also be a multitude of different theories and myths about how that plane works. Some of them could be right. Some of them could be right because enough people believe they are right. Or vice versa.
The multiverse was created by immense cosmic horrors beyond our understanding, so it can all go a bit wibbly-wobbly if you stare too hard at it for too long.
The planar map is an abstract simplification so that we can understand core concepts like travel through the abyss. It's a little like the London Underground tube map, which doesn't represent actual distance or position of the stations, because it wouldn't fit on a space where we could write it down. The honeycomb is a metaphor and the planes could be of wildly different sizes, orientations or from within them perceptibly infinite.
So therefore to answer the question of whether you could physically travel to the edge of a plane, it depends on the physical laws that operate within a particular plane as to whether that's possible or not.
Swolllliosis said :
What the heck is a realm then? ;_<
Realms and planes are more or less synonymous (because they haven't been used very consistently). Something to bear in mind is that some planes (often but not always incorporeal) are coterminous, occupying the same space but mirroring the physical plane (like a coin stacked on top of another coin rather than coins laid out beside each other). Coterminus planes can in some cases occur on multiple planes (such as the shadow realm).
Swolllliosis said :
Also, what kind of planes are the Killerwatt and Cosmic Entity Plane. The whole area is labelled as a “plane” on the fairy ring catalog.
We haven't locked the killerwatt plane in stone. It's a bit of an odd one as there isn't a clear runic representation of "lightning" as a theme. In an earlier draft I aligned it to air. Combination-rune-wise, I'd see lightning as fire+water or air+fire (electricity definitely seems like it has a basis in fire energy), but steam and smoke don't really scream lightning. I'd probably go with aligning the killerwatt plane to either chaos, astral or death. There may also be runic elements that we have yet to discover, or that we cannot tap into through runecrafting as its rune altar has been lost or destroyed.
The cosmic entity plane is a cosmic plane. (As noted above, multiple planes can have the same "flavour". They also need not be physically connected or even anywhere near each other.)
Aerak said :
...I'm confused. Infernus and Abbinah are both elemental planes of Smoke?
There's a subtle difference there, similar to the difference between smoke runes and smoke spells (which don't actually require smoke runes to cast). Infernus is a world from the previous revision that was almost, but not entirely, drained of energy in the elder god's consumption of the previous cycle. There are trace elements of ancient smoke, blood and ice magic in a few husks of dead worlds that surround Freneskae, that were later discovered, energised and channelled through further analysis, experimentation and the mastery of more complex catalytic energies. The previous elder gods may have achieved the discovery of other ancient elements, but these are all that remain.
Aerak said :
Neither of which make sense to me btw, because I was expecting Air for Abbinah and Shadow for Infernus.
The elemental planes are for the most part too hazardous and primal to sustain life (other than, say, elementals). The elemental plane of fire, for example, is literally a sea of everburning flame and not much else. It took the combination of those elements to create the components of habitable worlds (atmosphere, moisture, mass, heat, etc).
As I briefly mentioned in the talk, I had earlier drafts that aligned Abbinah to air and then to dust (as a world of floating islands, air and earth as its primary elements made the most sense to me), but Mod Raven and Jack have particular reasons for smoke (air and fire) to be more appropriate (and Raven did mention your conversation about the exposed molten core). Hopefully the answer to that will be revealed in time.
In the meantime, it helped to provide an example of the distinction between the smoke world of Abbinah and the dark world of Infernus that contains the essence of ancient smoke magic.
Gamez X said :
i actually made that picture of the universe they showed, a really unexpected surprise to see it used in official lore!
Hopefully the image credit I included on the slides was visible. (The font wound up being processed into a smaller size than I'd anticipated.) Many thanks for creating the image, Gamez X, and apologies that I didn't contact you in person to get permission to use it. It was a valuable basis for my presentation.
Gamez X said :
I used the information from ingame at the time to determine theres the lower worlds with terrible balance, the 4 elemental paths with themed worlds but still unbalanced, and the higher planes with good balance for high anima production. It was this premise that helped me determine how far up each planet is in the universal path. But jagex seems to be mixing it up in ways that dont make sense.
So, one crucial difference is that I kept your images in their original position (if only to keep the credited artwork intact), and tagged them with the rune for their plane. So their position bordering the central image wasn't intended to reflect their geographical location in the cosmology or how "balanced" they are.
Gamez X said :
i placed new domina (now renamed hallow) on the wen path because its stated to be mostly water with little land
It is still on the Wen path, but also includes an element of water in the origins of the astral rune. Bear in mind that more advanced runes are based on earlier ones, and astral actually flows from Wen/water via the sacral chakra, and Wen having a major investment in the creation of Hallow.
Again, I did have Hallow as a water world in an earlier draft, but we felt it was important that Hallow be represented within one of the higher planes due to the implicit associations that icyene have with angels and how that contrasts with the demons of the lower planes.
Gamez X said :
Then with yubuisk i called it a higher plane because ingame footage from before it became toxic shows it was FULL of lush plants and life. But they called it a low elemental plane, i suspect they're ranking it on only what it is now, not what it was
Yu'biusk became lush, but at its foundation was predominantly wetlands (marshes and swamps). Bear in mind that due to being a mud world, it's a much older world than many of the nature planets, so had longer to develop a hardy range of flora. The elder gods also sometimes returned to their earlier worlds and adapted them using new techniques they'd refined.
Infernus is another such example of returning to touch up an earlier work of art, and that's why there's a blood altar but no known catalytic blood worlds but there is a blood world in the lower planes, and no smoke or ice altar but there are smoke runes. Their earlier drafts were used for different applications.
Sometimes they also disassembled their works and discarded what they couldn't re-use in the abyss, so there may be entire fields of runic evolution that were developed and then destroyed by their creators. (If this seems confusing and not very consistent, that's because it is. The elder gods laboured for aeons on a wide variety of different celestial projects.)
Swolllliosis said :
I don’t get the whole honeycomb/plane thing. Are planes basically different star systems or galaxies? Could we theoretically travel to different planes with a spaceship?
So, think of a plane as a blank canvas upon which the elder gods painted one or more celestial bodies. Planes are also like cells of paint on an artist's palette, with a certain colour/flavour defined by the unique energy of that plane (which also influences the inhabitants of that plane, since they're part of its energy system), which we identify in our simplified spellcasting as runes. There can be multiple planes with the same colour/rune (or barely perceptible shades of that colour/energy).
The elder gods mixed these paints together to create ever more complex works of art to refine their skills and also improve themselves and their tools so they're capable of greater artistry, with the goal of painting the finest work of art they can achieve.
(This is a metaphor and try not to take it too literally.)
If you look up at the night sky from the perspective of a world, you could be seeing the abyss, or you might be seeing other stars and planets confined within that plane, or you might be seeing other stars and planes on the other side of the abyss.
There isn't a definitive answer that applies to all planes, because different planes can operate on entirely different physical laws. On one plane, a sun could rotate around a flat world. It could be carried on the backs of an infinite chain of juggling elephants. There could also be a multitude of different theories and myths about how that plane works. Some of them could be right. Some of them could be right because enough people believe they are right. Or vice versa.
The multiverse was created by immense cosmic horrors beyond our understanding, so it can all go a bit wibbly-wobbly if you stare too hard at it for too long.
The planar map is an abstract simplification so that we can understand core concepts like travel through the abyss. It's a little like the London Underground tube map, which doesn't represent actual distance or position of the stations, because it wouldn't fit on a space where we could write it down. The honeycomb is a metaphor and the planes could be of wildly different sizes, orientations or from within them perceptibly infinite.
So therefore to answer the question of whether you could physically travel to the edge of a plane, it depends on the physical laws that operate within a particular plane as to whether that's possible or not.
Swolllliosis said :
What the heck is a realm then? ;_<
Realms and planes are more or less synonymous (because they haven't been used very consistently). Something to bear in mind is that some planes (often but not always incorporeal) are coterminous, occupying the same space but mirroring the physical plane (like a coin stacked on top of another coin rather than coins laid out beside each other). Coterminus planes can in some cases occur on multiple planes (such as the shadow realm).
Swolllliosis said :
Also, what kind of planes are the Killerwatt and Cosmic Entity Plane. The whole area is labelled as a “plane” on the fairy ring catalog.
We haven't locked the killerwatt plane in stone. It's a bit of an odd one as there isn't a clear runic representation of "lightning" as a theme. In an earlier draft I aligned it to air. Combination-rune-wise, I'd see lightning as fire+water or air+fire (electricity definitely seems like it has a basis in fire energy), but steam and smoke don't really scream lightning. I'd probably go with aligning the killerwatt plane to either chaos, astral or death. There may also be runic elements that we have yet to discover, or that we cannot tap into through runecrafting as its rune altar has been lost or destroyed.
The cosmic entity plane is a cosmic plane. (As noted above, multiple planes can have the same "flavour". They also need not be physically connected or even anywhere near each other.)
25-Sep-2017 11:21:25 - Last edited on 25-Sep-2017 12:40:05 by Mod Stu
Mod stu, i dont mind you using my image at all, it was great seeing what was basically a fan theory/interpretation become kinda canon, even if that image was quite a bit outdated given the info thats come out since then. If you did contact me i would of been happy to make an updated version for you to use. Infact since seeing the stream i'm already drawing up map layouts for a new version now. I would love to sit down and chat sometime with one of you to compare notes and get a perfect image going
. Might make a thread on reddit sometime soon with all my notes and questions
I'm still having a little trouble understanding. I get your trying to go with the idea of comparing the fusion of atomic elements irl with the fusion of elements in this. Its interesting but does seem very complicated to try and make work in a way that makes sense. What i'm having trouble with is firstly that implies theres only as many planets as there are runes, unless your having doubles. But also it seems to throw off the order each planet is in terms of their relative balance and anima strength. When i did my order i looked at how stable and balanced each planet is, each planets relative age in terms of each gods backstory and the path's each god took after ascending and their documented journey to gilenor. With saying theres just 4 elemental paths this was tricky enough but to then try and logically branch/combine paths is gonna be tough. This said i think you nicely finished up the lower planes for me XD
I'll do a bit more work and show you my idea for the updated map, see if you like it or if stuff is still off. There's also a couple details missing like planets we know but dont have names for, which have/are moons, design stuff like planetary rings, possibility of certain planets sharing the same sun (i still think this is an important design aspect for showing world connectivity rather than everythings separate). Will get back to you
. Might make a thread on reddit sometime soon with all my notes and questions
I'm still having a little trouble understanding. I get your trying to go with the idea of comparing the fusion of atomic elements irl with the fusion of elements in this. Its interesting but does seem very complicated to try and make work in a way that makes sense. What i'm having trouble with is firstly that implies theres only as many planets as there are runes, unless your having doubles. But also it seems to throw off the order each planet is in terms of their relative balance and anima strength. When i did my order i looked at how stable and balanced each planet is, each planets relative age in terms of each gods backstory and the path's each god took after ascending and their documented journey to gilenor. With saying theres just 4 elemental paths this was tricky enough but to then try and logically branch/combine paths is gonna be tough. This said i think you nicely finished up the lower planes for me XD
I'll do a bit more work and show you my idea for the updated map, see if you like it or if stuff is still off. There's also a couple details missing like planets we know but dont have names for, which have/are moons, design stuff like planetary rings, possibility of certain planets sharing the same sun (i still think this is an important design aspect for showing world connectivity rather than everythings separate). Will get back to you
25-Sep-2017 16:03:45
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