RuneScape Forum Archive | Seren and the Mahjarrat

Eva Element

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Since CoM quest Seren has been getting some heat both in the game by characters and outside of the game by players for her role in creating the Ritual of Rejuvenation. Thus causing their decline and blaming her for the general aggressive personality typical of the Mahjarrat.

This how ever makes no Jas damn sense at all. The point of the Ritual was to sacrifice a Mahjarrat to give it's energy back to Mah. She then created the Ritual of Enervation to drain Mah of energy to create a new Mahjarrat. Creating an imperfect circle of taking and giving energy to Mah and ensuring the Mahjarrat will continue to exist.

Cut to several thousand years later when Icthlarin brought them to Gielinor. Being on the literal other side of the universe from Mah and without the original unmovable Ritual Stone continuing with the RoR would simply mean the energy was transferred to them instead as the logical end point since Mah could not absorb the energy that far away. That is perverting the original intention of the Ritual.

50,000 years give or take a new RoR is needed to be performed due to the depowering of the Mahjarrat. That again doesn't line up with what Seren created. As the RoR's point on Freneskae was to give the energy to Mah not other Mahjarrat. The only reason the Mahjarrat get a boost is simply because Mah isn't around or capable of absorbing the energy they release so the other Mahjarrat get it in stead. Now this Tuska sized blind spot in the Mahjarrat's history could be explained if the Mahjarrat had limited life spans. Much like Dwarfs or Humans. Allowing for the centuries to corrupt their history and be altered because of it. But they have near unlimited life span save being killed in battle or the Ritual. I'm a big entropy fan.

All subtlety and nuance of a napalm enema

20-Dec-2016 16:26:21

Eva Element

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In fact several current and well know Mahjarrat in the game can trace their existence back to Freneskae. They should be well aware of the difference the RoR had on Freneskae compared to on Gielinor. Even taking the most superstitious route of them assuming the power boost was Mah rewarding them. The events that happened like the Kharidian-Zarosian War in which the Mahjarrat changed sides sifting the balance of power in Zaros's favor. And Tumeken blowing up killing hundreds of Mahjarrat on both sides. Severely depleting their numbers.

Then later on with the uprising of Zamorak against Zaros they continued to hunt, fight and kill each other based on what god they followed. Never stopping to think they shouldn't fight and should worry about the survival of their own race. All while selecting one of their own to be killed in the RoR.

The original Ritual had nothing to do with powering them up. The only after effect of not participating in the Ritual is they simply aren't as magically powerful as they were before. Which is probably how they were before said Ritual boosting their powers far beyond what it was originally. And being obsessed with power they kill each other without worrying of long term effects. Until they get down to a handful and their existence is on the line. Then suddenly all their actions are Seren's fault some how.

Or to put it another way

I'm a big entropy fan.

All subtlety and nuance of a napalm enema

20-Dec-2016 16:26:32

Dec

2023

Cthris

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The way I've seen it presented through CoM and historic Jmod quotes is the following:

The Dreams of Mah were created by Mah to be immortal. They didn't loose power, and they didn't breed.

Seren created the ritual stone which served as a transferring rod so that Mah could drain their power. Also, when the mahjarrat were sacrificed a huge chunk of their energy went partly into Mah and some into the fellow Mahjarrat.

With this mutation the Mahserret started loosing power, and because they refused to do the sacrificial ritual they had no way of gaining power back so they eventually withered up and died, except for Hazeel.

Seren at some time later taught them to breed for sustainability reasons. Was it before the Mahserret all died? Who knows? I am inclined to think it was after because while I can understand why the Mahserret didn't want to do the sacrificial ritual, it doesn't make a ton of sense why they didn't want to do the birthing ritual.

The mahjarrat then went to Gielinor thousands of years later. Mah was still able to use her own ritual stone to suck out their energy from across the galaxy. This explains their energy release. During this time on gielinor the mahjarrat had no ritual stone so they couldn't sacrifice one another for energy. This meant that they had only one life. After being killed in the desert explosion their numbers were seriously reduced, and without Mah being there they had no way to give birth. The mahjarrat were at this time doomed to die within a very short time period.

Zaros offered to create a ritual stone for them. This allowed them to sacrifice one another to sustain their energy and counteract the curse Seren had put on them. This would allow the race to continue on for a few more thousand years.

During this time Zamorak figured out how to have a child, probably using his and his mates energy the same way Mah did to recreate the birthing process. Later Lucien figured out his own method.

20-Dec-2016 17:50:43

Dec

2023

Cthris

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In the 6th age, somehow a massive ritual stone was created accelerating their drainage. How it was created I'm not sure. I suspect Zaros lied and he created it himself, though he claims Mah made it. (If she did make it I suspect she was only able to do so by copying Seren)

The reason the mahjarrat are mad at Seren is because she stole their immortality, and corrupted their race. She also effectively wiped out the Mahserret by causing them to be drained of their energy. Her actions also has caused them thousands of years of suffering in gielinor because for all of the Second Age they had no way of sustaining their race without massacring one another.

Yeah I guess you could say it's their fault for leaving the planet but really they should be free to leave whenever they want without such horrible consequences and it's only do to Seren's selfishness that they even were in that predicament.

As a footnote a possible reason why the Mahserret didn't want to engage in the birthing ritual is that while they did take some energy from Mah, they still had to give up some of their own (As demonstrated by (Zem senior). This would increase the speed in which each individual Mahserret would die so I can kind of understand why they didn't want to do it.

20-Dec-2016 18:02:34 - Last edited on 20-Dec-2016 18:14:48 by Cthris

Eva Element

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Cthris said :
Seren created the ritual stone which served as a transferring rod so that Mah could drain their power. Also, when the mahjarrat were sacrificed a huge chunk of their energy went partly into Mah and some into the fellow Mahjarrat.

If the original Marker could create a passive energy drain from the Mahjarrat to Mah then the sacrifice would be unnecessary. Only requiring it in extreme moment. Which contradicts the fact the Ritual has become a core foundation of their society. The slow power drain would be just like the aging process in other races. With the other Ritual creating new life by pulling energy from Mah to calm her down. Allowing a semi perfect balance of energy taken and removed. And allowing the Mahjarrat to live as any other race.

An ounce from the many our weights a pound from the few.

Cthris said :
With this mutation the Mahserret started loosing power, and because they refused to do the sacrificial ritual they had no way of gaining power back so they eventually withered up and died, except for Hazeel.

Thought it was established that there were multiple tribes and the Mahjarrat were just a single specific tribe. the Mahserret and Chelon-Mah being other tribes. With the Chelon-Mah taking the survival of the strongest to extremes. To the point of fighting and killing off all but one. Before turning on the Mahjarrat before they left. With the Mahserret refusing to do the Ritual so they would grow old and die of natural cause or be captured by the more war like tribes and used as a sacrifice in their stead.

The body in Dg that many thought was Bilrach and the mysterious power in 2010 was in fact Bilrach sacrificing the last Chelon-Mah. I'm a big entropy fan.

All subtlety and nuance of a napalm enema

20-Dec-2016 20:04:27

Eva Element

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Cthris said :
The mahjarrat then went to Gielinor thousands of years later. Mah was still able to use her own ritual stone to suck out their energy from across the galaxy. This explains their energy release. During this time on gielinor the mahjarrat had no ritual stone so they couldn't sacrifice one another for energy. This meant that they had only one life. After being killed in the desert explosion their numbers were seriously reduced, and without Mah being there they had no way to give birth. The mahjarrat were at this time doomed to die within a very short time period.

How could the Marker Seren created effect Mahjarrat on the literal other side of the galaxy. The entire point of CoM quest is that Mah created a new Ritual Maker that connected to the Abyss which allowed her to siphon energy from all her creations across the galaxy.

It is, and the clouds are not the only thing it pierces. Mah has used it to literally puncture the abyss, allowing it to act as a conduit through which she can reclaim her energy. That is how she has managed to syphon it back across worlds. It is amazing what she is able to accomplish, even in her current state.

This was after FotG quest and a couple ages since the Mahjarrat came to Runescape. It is clear that Seren's stone didn't allow a connection between Mah and Runescape. Nor did the Stone Zaros created. Mah had to go out of her way and create her own Ritual Stone that pierced into the Abyss to allow her to drain energy from all her creations across the galaxy.

As well Palkeera and Zamorak were able to create a child before Zamorak ascended. And to travel that distance would require divine energy to move that far without use of World Gate. Even going from the Infernus to Frenekae would take a significant amount of power. I'm a big entropy fan.

All subtlety and nuance of a napalm enema

20-Dec-2016 20:04:44

Eva Element

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In fact the entire power drain of the Mahjarrat comes across less as Mah taking energy from them and more like a battery being drained. Kharshai and Jhallan have shown the Ritual is not required. Only needed if they make use of their magical capabilities. Thus draining their internal battery. Because Kharshai missed at least 2 rituals and is none worse the wear. Bilrach particularly discovered a way to recharge their batteries without needing to kill themselves.

The whole set up doesn't make any sense yet some how Jagex is trying to lay the blame at Seren's feet.

Cthris said :
The reason the mahjarrat are mad at Seren is because she stole their immortality, and corrupted their race. She also effectively wiped out the Mahserret by causing them to be drained of their energy. Her actions also has caused them thousands of years of suffering in gielinor because for all of the Second Age they had no way of sustaining their race without massacring one another.

That is thing though there is no evidence of Seren corrupting their race. Seren posed as Mah to convince them the sacrifice is needed. If Zaros couldn't cure an infertility problem then how could Seren alter an entire race to have their energy drained over time requiring them to kill each other to survive.

Even the problem the Elves developed after Seren attempted to expand their life cycle is noting remotely similar to this. As their pain and suffering they have when Seren is gone to long is more like the inherent passive make everyone like you effect Seren and Zaros have. Only amplified to extreme levels due to the untold amount of time Seren spent with them on Tarddiad and the fact she introduced crystals from her into their daily lives. Thus creating a deep and powerful connection between her and the Elves.

The Mahjarrat didn't even know she was around. Guthix was more well known in the 4th and 5th Age then Seren was by the Mahjarrat. I'm a big entropy fan.

All subtlety and nuance of a napalm enema

20-Dec-2016 20:04:59

Dec

2023

Cthris

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Eva Element said :

If the original Marker could create a passive energy drain from the Mahjarrat to Mah then the sacrifice would be unnecessary. Only requiring it in extreme moment. Which contradicts the fact the Ritual has become a core foundation of their society. The slow power drain would be just like the aging process in other races. With the other Ritual creating new life by pulling energy from Mah to calm her down. Allowing a semi perfect balance of energy taken and removed. And allowing the Mahjarrat to live as any other race.

The way I understand it is that the original marker was designed to both have a passive pull and to be used for punctual injections of anima. Just as the mega marker was designed to do both.

If it was only a drain, soon all the Dreams of Mah would be depleted of energy and die off. The ritual, while it partly gives some energy to Mah, was more used to rep-power the remaining mahjarrat. We know that the ritual powered up the others because the Chellon mah used it.
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Yes, there are 4 tribes of Dreams of Mah. Yes, the Mahserrat died partly because they were captured and used for sacrifice. Bilrach also mentions that they withered up and died. That's not my point though. The Dreams of Mah have existed longer than the rituals, so if the Mahserrat were previously mostly being killed off by being used as sacrifices then during the time that they existed without rituals they should have only been drained. But with no way to restore themselves (since the rituals did not exist) they would not have survived very long if they were being drained. Since they did exist for sometime then they must not have been drained.

21-Dec-2016 17:28:25

Dec

2023

Cthris

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It is ambiguous as to what the increased size of the Mega ritual stone actually did. We know for sure that it allowed for an increase in drain-rate, and allowed for Mah to drain Seren, Zaros, and Zamorak. Who know's, maybe Seren's also was able to puncture through the abyss. The quote you posted can be interpreted in two ways. 1) being the way that you interpreted it. That Mah had done something that had never done before. 2) that the speaker was impressed that she had punctured the abyss in the sense that they were amazed that she could do that considering her disabilities. The same way you might be impressed that a kid in a wheel-chair could rock climb, even though lots of people can rock climb.

Personally, I think there is good evidence that Seren's stone also punctured through the abyss.

When Seren created the stones, over 10k years ago she believed that Mah's condition was dire, and thus needed the Dreams of Mah to sustain them. Yet, for around 8k years there was no one around to do rituals. 2 tribes were extinct, one tribe had only 1 member so he wasn't doing any rituals, and the other was on gielinor. If Mah's situation was so dire, how could she have been able to survive 8k years unless she was constantly draining the remaining dreams of mah?
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21-Dec-2016 17:46:38

Dec

2023

Cthris

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Khazard was born in the third age. Zamorak was made a god at the end of the Second age. Thus Zamorak was god when Khazard was born.
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The modern day mahjarrat, except after CoM, were like batteries in the sense that they are energy sources, and Mah drains them, and then they need recharging. Now your Kharshai example is interesting.

Kharshai was able to limit how much energy he lost by not using his energy, which could be interpreted as him being a battery that just burns up energy when they use their power. However, this understanding contradicts Azzandra. Azzandra was locked in the pyramid, and couldn't use his powers, nor had any knowledge of time passing. He shouldn't have lost his power but Temple of Sennenistien/Ritual of a Mahjarrat revealed he did.

So there must be some other element to losing your power besides simply using them. Perhaps, to be drained of energy you have to have knowledge of Mah, to form some sort of attachment for the tether across the abyss? Kharshai erased his memory so there would be no tether. I'll admit that this is kind of a lorefail, but it was a lorefail from before CoM.

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Personally, I think there is a lot of evidence supporting that Seren caused the draining. Keep in mind evidence is not proof though...

-CoM has a ritual stone that drains mahjarrat. If one ritual stone drains mahjarrat then presumably all ritual stones drain mahjarrat.

-The Mahserrat were not on the brink of extinction before Seren created the ritual stones, thus they couldn't have been slowly draining away.

-Mah was able to exist for 8k years with no rituals. She was previously very close to death. The only explanation is that she received energy from the mahjarrat across the galaxy to sustain herself.

21-Dec-2016 17:57:24 - Last edited on 21-Dec-2016 18:21:32 by Cthris

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Seren and the Mahjarrat