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Seren and the Mahjarrat

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Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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The Mahjarrat are also mad at Seren because she caused the extinction of 3 tribes of the Dreams of Mah. Before the rituals, there was no reason to sacrifice one another. After the rituals, they had every reason to sacrifice one another. As we have already stated, the Mahserrat were mostly killed off by being used as sacrifices. Seren is at fault for this because without her, there would be no sacrifices. Chellonmah also would not all be dead because they had no reason to kill one another without the need for sacrifices. We don't know how the other tribe died off, but I presume it was related to sacrifices.

Zamorak is also personally mad because her meddling with their race caused them their culture to grow up inheritably violent, and destructive. (Personally, I think that's a bit hypocritical of Zamorak, but that's more of a flaw of Zamorak rather than his point since his point is valid.)
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Your point about how Seren could physically alter the dna of all the Dreams of Mah is a good one, but I would like to point out that it's not impossible for her to do so. Zamorak genetically altered all elves so they they would become Chaos dwarves so perhaps Mah could do the same thing. Also the Dreams of Mah are made up of very different stuff then the dragonriders. Dreams of Mah are made up of the same stuff Seren is made up of, so it stands to reason she knows how to manipulate their DNA.

All this being said, I doubt Seren actually manipulated the genetic structure of the Mahjarrat. The cause of their draining was not because the dreams of mah were changed in any way, but because Seren created a lightning rod/ritual stone between Mah and the Dreams of Mah that allowed for Mah to drain them. Without either the Rod or Mah existing, they wouldn't be drained.

21-Dec-2016 18:09:28

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

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The Mahjarrat knew Seren was around in the Second age, as demonstrated by Firemaker's curse quest. Though they didn't know she was actually the one who they knew as Mah, nor did they know she still was around as the Dark Lord in the 4th 5th age.
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I think I answered all your points, but I might have missed some (There is a lot of text and it is easy for me to skip over something by mistake.) If I did so let me know :D

21-Dec-2016 18:10:40 - Last edited on 21-Dec-2016 18:13:25 by Cthris

Eva Element

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The way I understand it is that the original marker was designed to both have a passive pull and to be used for punctual injections of anima. Just as the mega marker was designed to do both.

If it was only a drain, soon all the Dreams of Mah would be depleted of energy and die off. The ritual, while it partly gives some energy to Mah, was more used to rep-power the remaining mahjarrat. We know that the ritual powered up the others because the Chellon mah used it.


Original marker having a drain and powering up other Mahjarrat doesn't make any sense. If the Marker's intention is to help Mah regain some power. When the Mahjarrat left their home planet they numbered in the hundreds. A single one of them being sacrificed and their energy being distributed to 200 other Mahjarrat and Mah would result in the energy they released being reduced to insignificant levels. Particularly when it comes to Mah. The Laws of Energy Conservation do not match up with this. And while Elders can violate this the Dreams are a finite supply of Elder Energy to be distributed. Particularly important is the sheer scale of power Mah herself would require. We aren't talking about 2 or 4 sacrifices. If that is how the original marker works we are talking about mass sacrifices. 1/4th to 1/3rd the entire tribe to allow be powered up while supplying enough energy to actually effect Mah. So we are talking a hundred or so each time a sacrifice is needed.

The whole system doesn't make any sense what so ever.
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28-Dec-2016 19:15:08

Eva Element

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Yes, there are 4 tribes of Dreams of Mah. Yes, the Mahserrat died partly because they were captured and used for sacrifice. Bilrach also mentions that they withered up and died. That's not my point though. The Dreams of Mah have existed longer than the rituals, so if the Mahserrat were previously mostly being killed off by being used as sacrifices then during the time that they existed without rituals they should have only been drained. But with no way to restore themselves (since the rituals did not exist) they would not have survived very long if they were being drained. Since they did exist for sometime then they must not have been drained.


Mahserrat refused to take part in the Ritual and refused to fight so they were commonly used by the other 3 tribes as targets to avoid killing their own. They also died of natural causes and old age.

True the Dreams existed before the Ritual but there is no time frame for how long between their creation by Mah and Seren creating the Ritual to help Mah regain lost energy. Moia who is half Mahjarrat and half Human is shown to have a natural life span without the benefit of Ritual to be several centuries old. By the time of WE 1 she is already 1,000 years old. By the events of DG Tales she is 400-600 looking no worse the wear then someone in their 40s.

We don't know what the time frame is no do we know what time frame is considered a normal Dream life span to make any claim that Seren some how altered or corrupted them. If Moia can reach 600 years old without a problem while being a hybrid with a race with a very short life span. Then a pure Dream's life span could be thousands of years old. The Mahserrat could have been 8,000 years old when they finally died of natural causes. If Seren only created the Ritual 4,000 years after the Dreams were created then Mahserrat dying would have nothing to do with Ritual Stone.
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28-Dec-2016 19:15:35

Eva Element

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Just because they were created by Mah doesn't mean they follow the same logic as Seren and Zaros. Both of them were conscious creations by Mah. Pouring large amount of her remaining power into their creation. The Dreams of Mah how ever were not conscious creations. They were unconscious creations. She had no goal or idea when creating them. They were a product of her nightmares being given physical form due to the inability to control her power. This idea that because Seren and Zaros are for all intents and purposes immortal at least when it comes to age that the Dreams must be it also. Would also apply to literally every other race in the game. Humans were not conscious goals of the Elders to create. They were a byproduct of their actions much like Dreams are byproducts of Mah's nightmares.

This is particularly relevant because lately in lore they have been treating Elder Energy like a battery source. Zamorak even mentions he feels like his energy reserves were recharged after touching the stone.

Player:
Have you gained power from touching the Stone of Jas?

Zamorak:
I was able to absorb a lot of power from the Stone within a short time, almost as if I was re-energising stores that already existed within me.

Zamorak:
As the World Guardian, you were only able to channel the Stone's energy temporarily, whereas I was able to fully absorb it in order to permanently increase my strength.

Zamorak:
I recall that the humans of the Second Age drafted a hierarchy containing seven tiers of godhood, from demigods to Elder Gods.

Zamorak:
In this crude quantification of power I believe I have risen a tier, regaining the power I lost to Saradomin.

There is absolutely nothing that would state that the Dreams of Mah operate on any other set up even before the Ritual was created.
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28-Dec-2016 19:15:58

Eva Element

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It is ambiguous as to what the increased size of the Mega ritual stone actually did. We know for sure that it allowed for an increase in drain-rate, and allowed for Mah to drain Seren, Zaros, and Zamorak. Who know's, maybe Seren's also was able to puncture through the abyss. The quote you posted can be interpreted in two ways. 1) being the way that you interpreted it. That Mah had done something that had never done before. 2) that the speaker was impressed that she had punctured the abyss in the sense that they were amazed that she could do that considering her disabilities. The same way you might be impressed that a kid in a wheel-chair could rock climb, even though lots of people can rock climb.

Personally, I think there is good evidence that Seren's stone also punctured through the abyss.


It out right says that Mah created the super sized Ritual Stone for the specific intention of draining power back to herself. Not only from Mahjarrat but also from Seren and Zaros who she actually feared due to their abandoning of her. During the Quest her deepest fear shows up at Zaros and Seren. Since the Abyss acts like a fold in space (1 foot in there = 50 feet in normal space) it literally allowed her to reach across the entire galaxy and drain her power back. Not to mention it isn't the player or a Mahjarrat who made that statement. It is Seren and she if no one else would be capable of telling her own creation or a creation by Zaros from something Mah created.

Khazard was born in the third age. Zamorak was made a god at the end of the Second age. Thus Zamorak was god when Khazard was born.


There is no definite time frame between 2nd and 3rd age. What marked the end of 2nd and start of 3rd. The "death" of Zaro at Zamorak's hand? Zamorak's banishment? His return with the Averic Demon armies?
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28-Dec-2016 19:16:53

Eva Element

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CoM seems to make it look like it is instantaneous birth. Due to the Stone memories you can review were a Mahjarrat named Lucien picked a strong female to create a baby with but she was mortally wounded on the way to the site. During the Ritual she lacked the power needed to create a new offspring so he poured all his energy into the creation to make up for it. Killing himself in the process.

If Khazard was conceived after Zamorak became a god then he should be one of the most powerful Mahjarrat in existence. Because the power that Zamorak now has would be far more then any other Mahjarrat.

The modern day mahjarrat, except after CoM, were like batteries in the sense that they are energy sources, and Mah drains them, and then they need recharging. Now your Kharshai example is interesting.

Kharshai was able to limit how much energy he lost by not using his energy, which could be interpreted as him being a battery that just burns up energy when they use their power. However, this understanding contradicts Azzandra. Azzandra was locked in the pyramid, and couldn't use his powers, nor had any knowledge of time passing. He shouldn't have lost his power but Temple of Sennenistien/Ritual of a Mahjarrat revealed he did.

So there must be some other element to losing your power besides simply using them. Perhaps, to be drained of energy you have to have knowledge of Mah, to form some sort of attachment for the tether across the abyss? Kharshai erased his memory so there would be no tether. I'll admit that this is kind of a lorefail, but it was a lorefail from before CoM.
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28-Dec-2016 19:17:38

Eva Element

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The Transcript to Desert Treasure Quest says nothing about him being weakened by his time in the pyramid. Nor any other quest that said he was severely weakened by his time in the pyramid. It wasn't like he went right from a Ritual into the Pyramid. You have not only the time between the last Ritual to add in but also all the effort Azzandra put into defending the remains of the Zarosian Empire and the fight he had before being sealed.

He wasn't right from Ritual into Pyramid. And it seems to follow the same logic of Kharshai does. Restriction of use of their magical abilities reduces their power drain. Azzy was locked in the pyramid from 3rd age till 5th age. The 4th age alone is roughly 2,000 years. That is 4 Rituals he missed and yet still appeared capable of going toe to toe with any other Mahjarrat who wasn't wielding two Elder Artifacts.


Personally, I think there is a lot of evidence supporting that Seren caused the draining. Keep in mind evidence is not proof though...


Which is contradicted by literally every other example in the game. We have two confirmed Mahjarrats who despite missing several Rituals appear not much more weakened then those who didn't skip any Rituals simply by not using their magical abilities. Either because they didn't know how to due to messing with their own mind or due to being forcibly restricted from doing so.

-CoM has a ritual stone that drains mahjarrat. If one ritual stone drains mahjarrat then presumably all ritual stones drain mahjarrat.


That Stone was created by Mah specifically for the intention of draining power from her creations to power herself. She did that because Zaros and Seren were out of her reach on Gielnor. So her Stone had to reach into the Abyss and use that as a conduit to allow the draining effect to reach across to the direct other side of the galaxy.
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28-Dec-2016 19:18:17

Eva Element

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-The Mahserrat were not on the brink of extinction before Seren created the ritual stones, thus they couldn't have been slowly draining away.


The Mahserrat were also peaceful and were targeted by other clans to be used as sacrifices. And there is no time line between when the Dreams of Mah were created, how long they lived and how their lives were reduced once Seren started the Ritual.

If a Dream of Mah was born, lived 10,000 years and then died naturally before the Ritual. Then post Ritual the Dreams of Mah was born, lived 4,000 years then died naturally if they didn't take part in the Ritual then there would be basis of this. But there is no data to back it up.

-Mah was able to exist for 8k years with no rituals. She was previously very close to death. The only explanation is that she received energy from the mahjarrat across the galaxy to sustain herself.


The point of the Ritual wasn't to allow her to survive it was to help regulate her behavior by taking power or giving it back as needed to prevent her form hurting herself and what was left of the planet.

The Mahjarrat are also mad at Seren because she caused the extinction of 3 tribes of the Dreams of Mah. Before the rituals, there was no reason to sacrifice one another. After the rituals, they had every reason to sacrifice one another. As we have already stated, the Mahserrat were mostly killed off by being used as sacrifices. Seren is at fault for this because without her, there would be no sacrifices. Chellonmah also would not all be dead because they had no reason to kill one another without the need for sacrifices. We don't know how the other tribe died off, but I presume it was related to sacrifices.
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28-Dec-2016 19:18:36

Eva Element

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But none of that matches up with anything. Chelon-Mah came to that conclusion on their own. Fighting and killing each other till only one survived. Which is direct contradiction to the intention of Seren. Mahserrat were targeted simply because they were weaker then the other tribes. And the Mahkorat was wiped out by Azzy himself. Siliske killed Azzy's brother and blamed it on the Mahkorat so Azzy lead the Mahjarrat on a crusade against them wiping them from the face of the planet. (Reveled in Siliske's End Game)

Zamorak is also personally mad because her meddling with their race caused them their culture to grow up inheritably violent, and destructive. (Personally, I think that's a bit hypocritical of Zamorak, but that's more of a flaw of Zamorak rather than his point since his point is valid.)


And yet this is nothing but a cop out attempting to shift the blame for their actions. Mah's dreams have all been inherently aggressive. After their entire race was decimated by Tumeken rather then even vaugly attempt to rebuild the race they continue killing each other with out hesitation. Only once they are down to literally half a dozen do they suddenly think maybe this was a bad idea. If the Ritual was the source of their violent ways then what should also come with it is the knowledge they need a sustainable population to keep themselves going other wise they will simply cease to exist.

The problem is every Mahjarrat's actions have been based on pure ego. Literally shooting themselves in the foot simply to spite someone else. They know they have to sacrifice a Mahjarrat to survive yet they kill each other off with gleeful abandonment over ego even though every death only brings their own death closer and more obvious.
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28-Dec-2016 19:19:06

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