forums.rs

Forums

A question about Zaros

Quick find code: 341-342-246-65945752

of 5
Hguoh

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Zaros discussing his philosophy:

It is my belief that everything that occurs in life – both good and bad – should be used to forge oneself, to better oneself. If we give in to weakness, then we do not deserve the gift of life. Where Guthix sought balance in the world, I seek balance in oneself. One must strive to increase in power, but also in knowledge of how to wield that power. The younger gods have tended to fulfil only one of these things. You, World Guardian, fulfil both of these criteria.

Keep this blurb in mind from Zemouregal's memory:

Zamorak offered to help them throw off the shackles of their oppressive enslavement to the Chthonians, and still only Thammaron and Zebub had the wit and Imagination to actively fight for the rebellion.

And this blurb from Palkeera's memory:

The legions were formed of Chthonian nobles leading hordes of Avernic shock troops. This relationship continued in the Zarosian empire, but the vast human population elevated both castes of demons such that even the Avernic were among the elite of society. As the Chthonians lived lives of distant luxury, they failed to notice that some urban Avernic were beginning to develop a sentiment of rebellion. Zamorak played on this to sway many Avernic to his side, although only two of the Tsutsaroth were prepared to make an outright pledge of allegiance.

They had served as slaves under the Infernals, and continued to do so under the Chthonians. They did not strive for power, and gave in to their own weakness. The Avernic didn't seek to change their station until they were treated as elites on Gielinor, and all but two still didn't move to take power until the two that did took part in killing a god.

Remember, nobody came to help Zaros escape Mah's grasp. Just as he had to take the initiative and escape when he could, so too did the Avernic need to take the initiative to overthrow their slave drivers before he'd take interest. And it wasn't until Zaros fell that that happened.

01-Sep-2017 04:31:20

Padomenes

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hguoh said :
Zaros discussing his philosophy:

It is my belief that everything that occurs in life – both good and bad – should be used to forge oneself, to better oneself. If we give in to weakness, then we do not deserve the gift of life. Kind of 'Survival of the Fittest/Might is Right but with laws', this view was expressed in his empire. The 'give in to weakness' can be defined by various or caused by different factors.

A society that is lawful but allows and encourages predatory behavior/competition between individuals for survival inside a framework.

Zamorak = The above with no framework according to interpretations so more flexible. If somebody 'mighty' is stomping on you, then you have the freedom to use direct physical force in order to put a stop to it.

You can try and be a hero in Zamorak's society if the above cromes, but in the Zarosian empire you would be quickly arrested as a 'criminal/terrorist'. Imagine if the typical villains we stopped before in quests had a state protecting them, lived in the same societies with us and put out wanted posters of us around the city for trying to thwart them?

Just saying this is why in the end I don't like 'lawful-predatory' societies.

01-Sep-2017 04:44:19 - Last edited on 01-Sep-2017 04:52:46 by Padomenes

Hguoh

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Padomenes said :
Kind of 'Survival of the Fittest/Might is Right but with laws', this view was expressed in his empire. The 'give in to weakness' can be defined by various or caused by different factors.

A society that is lawful but allows and encourages predatory behavior/competition between individuals for survival inside a framework.

Not really. It's true that this was how the empire ended up turning out, but Zaros's own actions in developing the Empire really don't reflect this.

He tried to establish empire wide education.
He did establish water transportation systems for drinking and farming as well as a corresponding system for removing waste.
He developed advanced farming systems to feed the empire as it grew.

All of his actions point towards trying to develop a state in which the excess and luxury would have, and often did, create a framework that allowed inhabitants to pursue goals that would have been unfeasible without such infrastructure. As with any system, however, corruption wove its way throughout and twisted it to ends that Zaros hadn't intended.

As such, I personally see Zaros's philosophy as thus: if you aren't willing to utilize or work to change the system you've got if you think it flawed, you have no room to do anything beyond accept your lot. If you want better, you have to strive to fix it, throwing your hands up and saying its impossible is non-productive.

Honestly, you'd have an easier time trying to push the later half of the philosophy (One must strive to increase in power, but also in knowledge of how to wield that power.) as being Social Darwinist, but then you'd have to deal with that pesky bit about knowing how to wield the power you have which indicates that the powerful should have a degree of responsibility.

01-Sep-2017 10:38:42

Padomenes

Padomenes

Posts: 3,662 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hguoh said :
Not really. It's true that this was how the empire ended up turning out, but Zaros's own actions in developing the Empire really don't reflect this.

He tried to establish empire wide education.
He did establish water transportation systems for drinking and farming as well as a corresponding system for removing waste.
He developed advanced farming systems to feed the empire as it grew.

All of his actions point towards trying to develop a state in which the excess and luxury would have, and often did, create a framework that allowed inhabitants to pursue goals that would have been unfeasible without such infrastructure. As with any system, however, corruption wove its way throughout and twisted it to ends that Zaros hadn't intended.

As such, I personally see Zaros's philosophy as thus: if you aren't willing to utilize or work to change the system you've got if you think it flawed, you have no room to do anything beyond accept your lot. If you want better, you have to strive to fix it, throwing your hands up and saying its impossible is non-productive.

Honestly, you'd have an easier time trying to push the later half of the philosophy (One must strive to increase in power, but also in knowledge of how to wield that power.) as being Social Darwinist, but then you'd have to deal with that pesky bit about knowing how to wield the power you have which indicates that the powerful should have a degree of responsibility. Inside the empire if you wanted to do it that required operating inside a legal framework though. Um what about the quote? "It is true that many died in the name of progress, but many times more prospered"

As well as how the homeless/lower classes were treated? This isn't a statement meant to 'bash' but to determine what the writers wanted things to be, it was either him or the Chthonian system that was adopted and centered around 'lawful predatory societies'.

01-Sep-2017 12:02:19 - Last edited on 01-Sep-2017 12:03:33 by Padomenes

Hguoh

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
And I'm not saying you're wrong about the state of the empire. But this isn't a question about the empire, it's a question about Zaros's mindset and reason for ignoring the plight of the Avernic Demons. And while the empire may have been a 'lawful predatory society,' it is pretty darn clear from Zaros's actions that that particular result was not intended.

Again, Zaros decreed that the church should teach all of the empire's people. It was the members of the church who decided to restrict schooling to Senntisten.

Similarly, we know that there were laws on the books against consumption of humans, but that they weren't enforced by those who were meant to uphold the laws.

We know of ample innovations for water availability, waste disposal, and agriculture, all of which primarily benefit and serve human needs.

For as much as the empire failed, Zaros's actions throughout its creation and existence consistently work toward creating a system where basic needs are met and those who seek to better themselves and their situations are able to do so. And we know this worked to some degree.

Prior to the Mahjarrat, we know that the head of the Zarosian church was human. We know that the theatre Sliske used for his spectacle was run by and for humans at the time despite having been originally made and run by Cthonians. We saw Torva, Pernix, Virtus, and even Viggora allrise to prominent military positions despite being human. We saw in the Old Blood that Azzanadra, head of the church, was guarded by 4 humans.

I'm not saying that the empire was good as it very clearly wasn't. That being said, it's also abundantly clear that it want Zaros's goal to have it turn out that way. And the topic of conversation is Zaros's reasons for not aiding the Avernics after all.

01-Sep-2017 13:07:24 - Last edited on 01-Sep-2017 13:09:05 by Hguoh

Sepulchre
Dec Member 2020

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,525 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Well for starters, you have to remember that Zaros was created with no real concept of 'right and wrong,' 'good and evil,' or 'higher and lower class.' These were actually things he learned from the demons on Infernus. When he first arrived there, to him it seemed as though this was just the natural order of things, the way things were.

On top of that, even if he did understand those things, he had no real idea how to solve such a problem. You really have to understand that when Zaros first left Mah's side, he was ignorant to the world. Thoughts that would occur to your or I naturally about such things weren't something he was born or raised with.

As has already been mentioned as well, he is one who believes in furthering oneself. He doesn't do things for you, he helps guide you down the path. It is possible that, though it was never recorded, Zaros did in fact attempt to give the Avernic demons a means to free themselves from the subjugation of the Cthonian, they simply never capitalized on the opportunity. A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate .

01-Sep-2017 15:03:21

Hguoh

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Sepulchre said :
It is possible that, though it was never recorded, Zaros did in fact attempt to give the Avernic demons a means to free themselves from the subjugation of the Cthonian, they simply never capitalized on the opportunity.

I'm not sure that it was entirely intentional, but he was the one to bring them to Gielinor and establish a society where they were treated as elites and their Cthonian masters were kept busy elsewhere. All of this is noted in Palkeera's memory as being the catalyst for the development of sentiments of rebellion among the Avernic although only so much as to only have 2 Tsutsaroths actively join Zamorak's rebellion prior to Zaros's fall.

It's actually pretty similar to him providing for the basic needs of the empire's humans, which let them pursue other interests and goals of their choice.

01-Sep-2017 15:16:11 - Last edited on 01-Sep-2017 15:21:44 by Hguoh

Sepulchre
Dec Member 2020

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,525 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hguoh said :
Sepulchre said :
It is possible that, though it was never recorded, Zaros did in fact attempt to give the Avernic demons a means to free themselves from the subjugation of the Cthonian, they simply never capitalized on the opportunity.

I'm not sure that it was entirely intentional, but he was the one to bring them to Gielinor and establish a society where they were treated as elites and their Cthonian masters were kept busy elsewhere. All of this is noted in Palkeera's memory as being the catalyst for the development of sentiments of rebellion among the Avernic although only so much as to only have 2 Tsutsaroths actively join Zamorak's rebellion prior to Zaros's fall.

It's actually pretty similar to him providing for the basic needs of the empire's humans, which let them pursue other interests and goals of their choice. In other words, he DID give them the opportunity. A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate .

01-Sep-2017 16:14:36

Quick find code: 341-342-246-65945752 Back to Top