RuneScape Forum Archive | A question about Zaros

Hazeel

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Padomenes said :
Or create a society that rewards the good but punishes predatory behaviour in general

This must be the most profound and original idea for a government I have ever heard of. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

02-Sep-2017 19:22:40

Raleirosen

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Hguoh said :
None taken. I just don't see the value in just stating, 'He only cares about results.' Therefore, I go more in depth and seek to answer the question of, 'What results does he want?' And based off his actions and statements, it is abundantly clear that he consistently wants powerful followers who strive to become even more powerful so that he can use them to reach his goals (be they what they are at the time.

Such a goal led him to do many seemingly benevolent things for those who were under his rule and for those who continue to follow him now, but the entire point was to benefit him and help him reach his goals. Fair enough, that seems pretty thorough.
Sepulchre said :
ALL of the offense taken. It's called citing your sources. Try it sometime. lol Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

02-Sep-2017 19:53:02

MystLunaris

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Although it doesn't really seem like my question was really answered and now this has turned into a discussion about the merits of various societies and gods.
I think the key to my question probably lies in this Hguoh said :
The legions were formed of Chthonian nobles leading hordes of Avernic shock troops. This relationship continued in the Zarosian empire, but the vast human population elevated both castes of demons such that even the Avernic were among the elite of society. As the Chthonians lived lives of distant luxury, they failed to notice that some urban Avernic were beginning to develop a sentiment of rebellion.
The way I interpret that is that Zaros did actually do a lot for the Avernic to ensure they had a good quality of life and weren't just used by the Chthonians, to the point where they barely ever even saw a Chthonian unless they were marching into battle.

As for the whole Saradomin wanting a society that protects the weak and punishes predatory behaviour, please tell me where killing the Naragi because they refused to worship him fits into that?
Or joining Zamorak to kill the weakened Zarosians after Zaros left?
How about ripping Garlandia's wings off for her suggesting he should be peaceful instead of fighting people, in front of all the other Icyene?
Saradomin is a predator, he just doesn't want anyone else taking his prey or making them strong enough to survive without his constant influence. 99-120 Skill content , Skilling boss ideas , Talents , God Emissary D&D/Minigame , Vampyric and Elven tech trees

15-Sep-2017 13:53:37

Padomenes

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MystLunaris said :
As for the whole Saradomin wanting a society that protects the weak and punishes predatory behaviour, please tell me where killing the Naragi because they refused to worship him fits into that?
Or joining Zamorak to kill the weakened Zarosians after Zaros left?
How about ripping Garlandia's wings off for her suggesting he should be peaceful instead of fighting people, in front of all the other Icyene?
Saradomin is a predator, he just doesn't want anyone else taking his prey or making them strong enough to survive without his constant influence. Since when has Saradomin 'killed people' including yourself for refusing to worship him? He admits that he regrets it and was new to being a god/leadership back then in dealing with those things.

There were also many Zarosian humans who joined Saradomin(Everybody in Misthalin pretty much was descended from those humans), its stated he did not want to kill the 'weakened Zarosians' but to peacefully come in and put them under his rule but they got violent and attacked them plus diplomats, killing some of Saradomin's people coming in to place them under administration then he got violent.

The 'ripping off' was not done out of emotion but for a logical reason and purpose, being a tactic to show during a desperate time of war of what whom they were fighting would do if everybody listened to Garlandia and refused to fight or surrendered. They would be wiped out. Many human societies have killed those that refused to fight in a war and tried to retreat including irl if it was severe which it was.

And I am talking about how his societal structure and the economy runs. 'Competition and survival of the fittest' would be outright illegal in a Saradominist society which had more equality and was happier than the Zarosian Empire(Whom were said to be 'more materially rich, advanced and biggest military industrial complex' but miserable/less meaningful to live in, especially if poor).

15-Sep-2017 14:26:53 - Last edited on 15-Sep-2017 14:34:29 by Padomenes

Padomenes

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-For previous reply, there was very little inequality in Saradomin's empire in the 2nd age also despite it being 'financially poorer' overall than most of Zaros's materially(Which had the biggest wealth gap) so to sum it up. Everyone was equal so to say in Saradomin's society overall in general for the citizens' opportunities, people were more laid-back too. Corruption and bribery was also less common in the Saradominist societies which were fairly the most equal on Gielinor.

Saradomin wanted to spread/enforce a world of equality across Gielinor in what he did while trying to claim Zaros's territories and wants a world of complete equality as the end goal without any predatory behavior to disrupt that. His current dialogue of wanting a 'utopia' also hints he intends to do that.

15-Sep-2017 14:39:28 - Last edited on 15-Sep-2017 14:53:15 by Padomenes

MystLunaris

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Padomenes said :
Since when has Saradomin 'killed people' including yourself for refusing to worship him? He admits that he regrets it and was new to being a god/leadership back then in dealing with those things.

Since I already mentioned the Naragi I won't bother again, I also already mentioned Garlandia, but it bears going over again that in Icyene culture that is considered a death sentence and Saradomin was not even kind enough to even help her survive through the harsh winter, it was only through her own strength and determination that she survived.
If Saradomin actually regretted his actions and wanted to do some good he would've helped her survive, but he didn't.
Lastly, yes he does actually try to kill you as the player too if you refuse to give the wand to Saradomin during The Death of Chivalry or try to destroy it Saradomin will say this and then launch an attack at you, with you only really still being alive thanks to the protection from Guthix "Player: No. You cannot have the wand.
Saradomin: You dare defy a god?
Saradomin: I shall not be denied!
Player: I will destroy the wand.
Saradomin: No!
Are you sure you want to destroy this object?
Yes.
Saradomin: You have defied me for the last time, World Guardian."

Also of note during that same quest Saradomin is proven to be evil since when he tries to revive Sir Owen he comes back to life corrupted.
And when discussing bringing Own back to life this conversation can happen
"Player: He has suffered enough. Let him rest in peace.
Saradomin: Sir Owen has the potential to do great deeds in my name. He has dedicated his life to me.
Saradomin: Sir Owen has much work left to do. I cannot squander this gift..."
Note, Saradomin is only thinking about himself and how he can use Owen for his own ends, no concern at all for Sir Owen. 99-120 Skill content , Skilling boss ideas , Talents , God Emissary D&D/Minigame , Vampyric and Elven tech trees

15-Sep-2017 16:12:47

MystLunaris

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Also, back to Garlandia, do you not think that maybe Saradomin could've just said something like "Unfortunately war is inevitable if we do not fight then we will just be slaughtered" or maybe just tried to have some peace meetings with their opponents and then show that either their opponents would not accept peace or that they would demand too much in return for it, don't you think that'd be a better way of getting the point across than just ripping the wings off someone and leaving them to die just because they said they didn't want to fight. I mean that's something that Bandos would do and I think we can all agree he's a giant pile of shit.

Padomenes said :

its stated he did not want to kill the 'weakened Zarosians' but to peacefully come in and put them under his rule but they got violent and attacked them plus diplomats, killing some of Saradomin's people coming in to place them under administration then he got violent.
Can you provide a source for that?
Plus that still doesn't explain why he would team up with someone like Zamorak to fight against the Zarosians, if he truly wanted to peacefully come in and put them under his rule, wouldn't he defend them against attacks from Zamorak, to show them that he didn't want to hurt them and that he could protect them?
Rather than teaming up with Zamorak to destroy them. 99-120 Skill content , Skilling boss ideas , Talents , God Emissary D&D/Minigame , Vampyric and Elven tech trees

15-Sep-2017 16:23:59 - Last edited on 15-Sep-2017 16:24:23 by MystLunaris

Padomenes

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MystLunaris said :
Padomenes said :
Since when has Saradomin 'killed people' including yourself for refusing to worship him? He admits that he regrets it and was new to being a god/leadership back then in dealing with those things.

Since I already mentioned the Naragi I won't bother again, I also already mentioned Garlandia, but it bears going over again that in Icyene culture that is considered a death sentence and Saradomin was not even kind enough to even help her survive through the harsh winter, it was only through her own strength and determination that she survived.
If Saradomin actually regretted his actions and wanted to do some good he would've helped her survive, but he didn't.
Lastly, yes he does actually try to kill you as the player too if you refuse to give the wand to Saradomin during The Death of Chivalry or try to destroy it Saradomin will say this and then launch an attack at you, with you only really still being alive thanks to the protection from Its already been said, he does what he does because he believes you are committing cruelty and an act of pure evil according to a mod confirmation for refusing to help save Sir Owen's life and blasted off a few words in that hint of anger. If you refuse to bow(worship) Saradomin he does not say anything and the wand has nothing to do with worshiping or not, he believes its needed which doesn't require that.

15-Sep-2017 16:57:29 - Last edited on 15-Sep-2017 17:01:52 by Padomenes

Padomenes

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MystLunaris said :
Also, back to Garlandia, do you not think that maybe Saradomin could've just said something like "Unfortunately war is inevitable if we do not fight then we will just be slaughtered" or maybe just tried to have some peace meetings with their opponents and then show that either their opponents would not accept peace or that they would demand too much in return for it, don't you think that'd be a better way of getting the point across than just ripping the wings off someone and leaving them to die just because they said they didn't want to fight.

Padomenes said :

its stated he did not want to kill the 'weakened Zarosians' but to peacefully come in and put them under his rule but they got violent and attacked them plus diplomats, killing some of Saradomin's people coming in to place them under administration then he got violent.
Can you provide a source for that?
Plus that still doesn't explain why he would team up with someone like Zamorak to fight against the Zarosians, if he truly wanted to peacefully come in and put them under his rule, wouldn't he defend them against attacks from Zamorak, to show them that he didn't want to hurt them and that he could protect them?
Rather than teaming up with Zamorak to destroy them. The Zarosians rejected Saradomin's annexation of the territory and chose to kill his troops coming in to re-govern or occupy it. As said again mod sources, everybody here knows this fact. They did not want to be ruled by Saradomin politically.

What happens if they refused to listen to him and all chose Garlandia then got wiped out by those whom they were fighting? It was an extreme situation and she was dangerously convincing.

It was already stated their opponents were an aggressive, dominant, predatory species and would not reason at all. You would rather prefer the Icyene get massacred?

15-Sep-2017 16:59:49 - Last edited on 15-Sep-2017 17:01:22 by Padomenes

MystLunaris

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Padomenes said :
Its already been said, he does what he does because he believes you are evil for refusing to help save Sir Owen's life and blasted off a few words in that hint of anger.
Except he doesn't say something like "Sir Owen must live!"
He says "Saradomin: You dare defy a god?
Saradomin: I shall not be denied!"
Or
"Saradomin: You have defied me for the last time, World Guardian."
Note, he's only talking about himself and what he wants and how he will not allow you to go against what he wants, also what do you think he means by "You have defied me for the last time" what exactly were your previous defiances?

Padomenes said :

The Zarosians rejected Saradomin's annexation of the territory and chose to kill his troops coming in to re-govern or occupy it. As said again mod sources, everybody here knows this fact. They did not want to be ruled by Saradomin politically.
Again, source please, just saying "mod sources" and "everybody here knows this fact" doesn't count as an actual source and I've been looking through all the wiki info about the God wars and I can't find anything talking about that.

Padomenes said :
What happens if they refused to listen to him and all chose Garlandia then got wiped out by those whom they were fighting? It was an extreme situation and she was dangerously convincing.
At the very least it would've still been their choice.
Plus I still think there were better ways go to about convincing them.

Padomenes said :
It was already stated their opponents were an aggressive, dominant, predatory species and would not reason at all. You would rather prefer the Icyene get massacred?
I'd like a source for that too, I can't find any information about who the Icyene were fighting against in that situation.
And no matter my answer that last question is irrelevant. 99-120 Skill content , Skilling boss ideas , Talents , God Emissary D&D/Minigame , Vampyric and Elven tech trees

15-Sep-2017 17:56:08

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A question about Zaros