forums.rs

Forums

Power - Apparently, it's Evil

Quick find code: 341-342-139-65879726

of 6
Summerleaf
Nov Member 2012

Summerleaf

Posts: 3,313 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
TryflBane said :
Whatever

Cthris is very well spoken, and it comes off to be rude or condescending occasionally, I have noticed, but I don't think he means to be.

Just take it with a grain of salt. It's literally just the forums for a videogame. Calm yourself.

15-Feb-2017 22:24:06

Thatds

Thatds

Posts: 463 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Not sure how relevant this is at the current point of conversation, but I'm a few minutes into John Green's Crash Course on Lord of the Flies, and I found that apparently this discussion can refer to it as a sort of jumping off point on who we agree/disagree with in terms of human morality.

We have those who support Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who believed that man was at his best when in nature and completely isolated from social constructs (which may or may not be equivocated to power in some way).

Then we have those who support Thomas Hobbes, who believed that a social construct was all that prevented us from becoming falling back on aggression and violence to solve all of our problems.

Evidently, I agree with Jean-Jacques Rousseau, but I'm interested in what everyone else has to say about these perspectives.
Either get lucky or grind trying.

16-Feb-2017 23:57:26

Maiden China

Maiden China

Posts: 5,142 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Thatds said :
Not sure how relevant this is at the current point of conversation, but I'm a few minutes into John Green's Crash Course on Lord of the Flies, and I found that apparently this discussion can refer to it as a sort of jumping off point on who we agree/disagree with in terms of human morality.

We have those who support Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who believed that man was at his best when in nature and completely isolated from social constructs (which may or may not be equivocated to power in some way).

Then we have those who support Thomas Hobbes, who believed that a social construct was all that prevented us from becoming falling back on aggression and violence to solve all of our problems.

Evidently, I agree with Jean-Jacques Rousseau, but I'm interested in what everyone else has to say about these perspectives. I agree with hobbes, or he agrees with me... I mean, while he existed before me, I didn't exactly know his views on this until now and as such they were mine first :P Carn

17-Feb-2017 02:13:28

Thatds

Thatds

Posts: 463 Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Maiden China said :
I agree with hobbes, or he agrees with me... I mean, while he existed before me, I didn't exactly know his views on this until now and as such they were mine first :P

Time doesn't work like that.

And yes, you've made your pointedly pessimistic case quite clear.
Either get lucky or grind trying.

17-Feb-2017 04:30:36

VILE39

VILE39

Posts: 104 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
@Thatds Interesting proposition. I think social contructs (or is it more accurate to say "social order" ) very often arise naturally within a population of living organisms. From the perspective of the individual, it is only natural for a living being to seek control over its environment, social circle and even its whole life. This is why deep down in (sub)consciousness, every one seeks things such as power. Deathless I see, but even immortals will not escape my wrath!

17-Feb-2017 04:34:43 - Last edited on 17-Feb-2017 04:35:05 by VILE39

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Maiden China said :

but also another thing... people are evil (you can say flawed if you want) and the law, the enforcement of it, and other people sort of keep you 'good'. You're probably not going to go rob a convenience store because you'll probably get arrested, do jail time, and the people in your life will think less of you


Consider the following scenario. One day you wake up and realize you are invisible, and you can never turn visible again. However since you are invisible you can now do whatever you want without any social repercussions. In your invisible form money would now be useless since its just a means to an end and you can directly acquire any end that you want. Hobbes himself would probably say you would not murder anyone because no one would be in competition to you. Most of your “criminal” activity would revolve around stealing things that you need or want. However, lets say during your travels as an invisible person you stumble upon a secret room in area 51 that has an alien that can fulfill any wish that you want (besides becoming visible). Now you would no longer need to steal from anyone because you can just ask the alien for whatever you want. Even Hobbes would likely be of the opinion that you wouldn’t steal because stealing is a lot more work that just asking the alien for whatever you want. In fact, you probably wouldn’t commit any crimes as if you could have whatever you wanted whenever you wanted it and without social judgement.

What this account tells us is that people don’t act “evil” as you say because it is in their nature to do so but because their environment compels them to die to it being filled with finite resources.

(That is of course assuming our ultimate goal in life is some other activity or thing other than doing the activity of crime, but even Hobbes would never suggest that this is the ultimate goal because he only sees “evil” as a means, rather than an end)

17-Feb-2017 06:23:54 - Last edited on 17-Feb-2017 14:49:08 by Cthris

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The ultimate point that I am trying to get at is that Hobbes philosophy is problematic because it does not try to study human nature in isolation. If you want to study a particular variable it is only reasonable to eliminate all other variables. However, Hobbes’ thought experiment puts humans in an environment in which forces them to act certain ways. If you truly want to study human nature you have to put humans in an environment where the environment does not compel them to do anything.

17-Feb-2017 06:24:43 - Last edited on 17-Feb-2017 14:47:20 by Cthris

Solanumtinkr

Solanumtinkr

Posts: 22,240 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Laws are an evolution of social mechanisms that helps people work together more peaceably in groups so as to place control of such things firmly in the hands of a ruling class. Some would say it's to lay out a set conditions so that everyone knows what they are, but that is just an after the fact justification into why they came into being. Especially since all the add-ons of things like "international law" and ones added due to diplomacy, trade ect, would only have come a very, very long time after laws first came into being.

So laws are an extension of social and cultural control mechanisms, set and handled by a ruling class.

Yes that all relates to, is power evil, as laws are a form of power as well and have to have their own checks and balances or the ones making such laws could and have run out of control. Though I freely admit that sometimes the only check in place to stop extreme stupidity in law making was after the fact complaints to point of attempting to burn areas to the ground. No one calls laws evil, but they have been used in such ways that they could be easily labelled as such. The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
To the Manor Born QFC 185-186-367-65788716

17-Feb-2017 06:49:26 - Last edited on 17-Feb-2017 07:01:39 by Solanumtinkr

Cthris
Dec Member 2023

Cthris

Posts: 5,206 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hguoh said :
It's not that power makes you flawed/bad. When it comes to being flawed, everybody is. All power does is magnify what these flawed beings are capable of, which, in turn, makes their flaws more obvious and any errors more egregious.
Something is flawed if it deviates away from what it was designed to be. Did you intent to argue that humans are supposed to act a certain way?

Thatds said :

Laws don't exist to keep people from killing and stealing; they exist to punish those that do.

That's an interesting stance on the purpose of laws. What do you believe is the purpose of punishing people?

Philosophers during the age of enlightenment such as Bentham have suggested that punishment is only a means to prevent people from committing further crimes. This is largely where the idea of deterrence in the western criminal justice system comes from.

However philosophers that came before even them subscribed to the idea of universal justice, such as Aquinas. They believed that crime caused a cosmic imbalance and the only way to restore such imbalance is punishment. (Though Aquinas took it a bit further and suggested that the cause of criminal tendencies was the influence of demons and punishment drove them out)

So if the purpose of laws in your eyes is to punish those that commit crimes, what purpose does punishment serve to justify the creation of laws?

17-Feb-2017 06:52:04 - Last edited on 17-Feb-2017 06:59:05 by Cthris

Hguoh

Hguoh

Posts: 7,581 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Cthris said :
Hguoh said :
It's not that power makes you flawed/bad. When it comes to being flawed, everybody is. All power does is magnify what these flawed beings are capable of, which, in turn, makes their flaws more obvious and any errors more egregious.
Something is flawed if it deviates away from what it was designed to be. Did you intent to argue that humans are supposed to act a certain way?

Oh not at all. Merely that we are incapable of knowing everything, which enables them to make mistakes (cause unintended effects with their actions). In other words, the thing I am saying that we are flawed in comparison to is the ideal of perfection (which itself cannot be realized due to its very nature).

17-Feb-2017 14:21:37

Quick find code: 341-342-139-65879726 Back to Top