RuneScape Forum Archive | Y Trump will lose 2020.

Feb

2005

Joel

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Jaekob Caed said :
Bernie will never win and not just because the Democrat party can't seem to conjure any semblance of unity. Even if he did win somehow, all of the one-track minds that voted for him will realize that his socialist crap isn't gonna fly in the US and even if it did, they'd quickly wisen up to how atrocious that system is.
Bernie threatens the establishment, status quo and everything the 'elites' have built to further their own advantages, both on the left and right - He's also not funded by corporate interest and therefore not influenced by those with money and power - That's their issue with him.

The word socialism gets thrown around like candy! Reality is, the USA already has many well liked and popular social programs - Could they be better? Absolutely but they're better than any alternative so lets not try to make out 'socialism' is this new outlandish thing for the US to adopt.

Every advanced nation in the world offers health care as a right to their citizens but due to corporate greed & profits of the pharmaceutical companies taking precedent over people's health, the USA still refuses to implement such a system despite it being massively popular.

If you want to talk about selfishness & greed you cannot in your right mind be using Trump as an argument against those things - He is the poster boy for selfishness & greed and it's not only him actively profiting from his Presidency, his rich donor buddies as well as his children profit also - What do you think the 'tax cuts' were? Most of the cuts went to the most wealthy. Nobody questioned the cost of that even though that ballooned the deficit.

Trump inherited a growing economy / upward trend from Obama after the financial crash of 2008, which may I add, happened under who's watch? Because it certainly wasn't democrats.

You're right, the economy is doing well, for the most wealthy! Not for the majority of working Americans - not really a good measure.

Joel

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20-Feb-2020 16:16:31

Averia Light

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Can you please provide the source for the tax cuts that were exclusive to the rich? All tax brackets fell 1-2% and the wage based for each bracket fell (meaning those who made, say, 40k fell into a lower bracket). The standard deduction being doubled and all the fuckery there definitely benefited Trump's base (Boomers), but I wouldn't say they are the "rich" category.

Also, you really might want to read up on how Bill Clinton rewrote the Community Reinvestment Act before throwing bold claims that Democrats had nothing to do with the 2008 crisis...

"In 1995 Clinton loosened housing rules by rewriting the Community Reinvestment Act, which put added pressure on banks to lend in low-income neighborhoods. It is the subject of heated political and scholarly debate whether any of these moves are to blame for our troubles, but they certainly played a role in creating a permissive lending environment."

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1877351_1877350_1877322,00.html

I mean if you want to debate about this impact, ok, but I would advise against making such claims without sources because it is heavily debated. Plus a few other Democrats appear on that list. And I swear I'm not going to let her know all the pain I have known

20-Feb-2020 17:49:01 - Last edited on 20-Feb-2020 17:53:07 by Averia Light

Averia Light

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Furthermore, the economy rebounding was an effort from a lot of different departments, including the Federal Reserve which operates independently.

I'm not going to sit here and say Obama had nothing to do with it, but pretty much any sitting president at that time would have experienced growth unless they purposely wanted the economy to fail because the executive decisions are only a part of the government that monitors and impacts the economy. I also will say that Trump very well could have caused a depression with his nonsense had he been president by starting the trade war, but he also wasn't in the running thank goodness. Mitt probably would have experience the same growth though as there would be no reason to think he would be a loose cannon. And I swear I'm not going to let her know all the pain I have known

20-Feb-2020 18:03:06

Feb

2005

Joel

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All you need to do is carry out a little research to find countless reports and articles diving into the specifics of Trump's tax cuts, and hidden among all of the wishy wash were little nuggets of information which really paints a picture of the intentions behind the cuts.

Firstly, any tax cuts to businesses were written in to be permanent while individual cuts are due to expire in 2025 plus the corporate tax rate saw the biggest cut (35% to 21% - in reality its a lot lower) - first tell tail sign. An increase in the estate tax exemption also another sign.

Then when you start looking at higher earners compared to those on minimum wage for example, the top earners saw a higher % of after-tax income where lowest earners could see as low as 0.4% - You think the wealthy and corporations got 0.4%? Absolutely not.

Let's not kid ourselves. Trump touted the wall as his main priority in his campaign as there was apparently such a massive urgency to get it built - yet he chose to carry out his tax cut plan while Republicans had control of both the House and Senate because that's where the priority was, to give his rich donor buddies a return on their investments (campaign contributions).

You're right, we can have a much wider debate about 2008 but last time I checked, despite always questioning the cost of things when it comes to policies that would help most Americans (e.g health care), republicans have no problem ballooning the deficit when it's to fund tax cuts for the rich, increasing an already overly bloated military budget which a slither of could fund hundreds of thousands of teachers and help improve education.

At the heart of everything is corruption in politics, especially money in politics which corrupts those in power to serve the interest of their donors over their voters.

Part of the reason Trump was/is so popular among his base is because he was all for 'draining the swamp' when in reality, he is the swamp.

Joel

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20-Feb-2020 22:07:33

Averia Light

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Oh haha, I see what is happening.

The individual rate fell across all groups. The corporate rate fell in 2017.

In order to discuss the actual income tax imposed on the individual, you have to understand that double taxation exists for such situations. Basically the corporation is taxed at the corporate amount and then whatever amount the owner pulls for a "paycheck" is taxed at the individual amount.

Assume a 35% corporate and 30% individual amount pre-2017.
Assume a 21% corporate and 28% individual amount post-2017.
Assume 100 corporate taxable income and 50 individual taxable income.
All other additions a d deductions are already factored into the taxable amount and taxes (like state, locality, AMT, passive rules, employment, etc..) are 0.

100*.35=35 100-35=65. 65*.3=19.5 65-19.5= 45.5. So an effective rate of about 55%
100*.21=21 100-21=79 79*.28=22.12 79-22.12=56.88. So an effective rate of about 45%.

Rest assured both rates are way above the 28% individual rate most peoppe without C corps pay. But you are right in that the corporate rate fell. I assumed you were talking about rich individuals, not corporations, sorry. And I swear I'm not going to let her know all the pain I have known

20-Feb-2020 22:52:10

Averia Light

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And estate taxes are pretty much the same principal. The parents (or whoever) were already taxed and the children (or whoever) are taxed again. Tbh, I haven't touched estate taxes since college though, but I can't imagine it could have changed. So that money is more than likely (without me researching it) taxed twice, don't worry.

Also the earned income credit exists, which is a refundable credit which means an individual can get more money than they paid in. Also a ton of credits are phased out at about 150,000 (I was one of them), so if you really want to complain, try being upper middle class. Both sides fuck you over

.

And, both sides pander to their bases as opposed as doing what will help the most people. Taxes are a huge way of achieving this goal. And I am not arguing if Trump is good. I believe I called him a loose cannon. Taxes are just cut and dry and easily verifiable and throwing shade on one party for the 2008 crisis is silly when a ton of hands were dirty.

Also, lol healthcare. A lot of deductibles are beyond what people even have saved, so the ACA "helped" a lot of Americans in the same way a baseball bat to the knee would help. And I swear I'm not going to let her know all the pain I have known

20-Feb-2020 23:00:33

Feb

2005

Joel

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Averia Light said :
Oh haha, I see what is happening.
What exactly?

I'm not going say only the rich got a tax cut and nobody else saw a penny because that's not true and not what I said. But what is widely reported and has been analysed is how these cuts were aimed at those with more wealth rather than those with less, increasing the ever growing wealth gap.

Trump also did nothing to close loopholes in the tax code that corporations exploit despite campaigning the opposite. It's also why as The Hill reported last year that 60 of the biggest companies avoided paying tax in 2018 (e.g Amazon, Netflix), double than years prior to that as a result of the Trump tax cuts. Of those 60 companies that should have paid $16.4B in taxes actually got a rebate of $4.3B, a difference of $20.7B which could as an example go a long way to help pay for free public college to better the education system and opportunities (and that's just the top 60 companies).

So let's not be mistaken of what the intention of the Trump Tax cuts were the working and middle class families of America were not at the forefront of his/his administration's mind when introducing this new tax law.

And yes, the financial crash was bigger than one person, party or country - What I said in my last post is more about how 'conservatives' (supposedly all about watching what the country spends) seem to always question the cost of things when it comes to social programs and things that will actually help the majority of Americans, but when it comes to expanding the military, tax cuts etc - no mention of cost whatsoever despite those costing a hell of a lot.

Joel

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21-Feb-2020 20:52:10

Feb

2005

Joel

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There's a lot wrong with American Health Care. First and foremost, its treated as a greedy for profit industry with little regard for the public health and well being of Americans.

Americans pay so much more (even up to 10x more for certain drugs) compared with what other countries pay but nothing is ever done about it. ACA helped to give more people coverage and in some ways it achieved it but it was far from perfect.

Like I said, every other advanced nation on Earth has a universal health care system that gives every citizen access to healthcare, to prevent them from loosing their home, going bankrupt or even dying simply because they couldn't afford the care they needed.

But all the right-wing does (and even a lot of the left) is shout about how much it'll cost, scaremonger about not being able to keep your doctor, spread lies about how much people love their insurance.

In reality, nobody loves insurance. It's something you need to have and deal with, not something you choose to have.

Joel

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21-Feb-2020 20:52:18

Averia Light

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You are discussing corporate tax rates with the 21%. The rich individual experienced a similar 1-3% drop like most categories. That was where the miscommunication happened and what is "happening". Refer to my previous post to discuss rich individuals which are completely different than corporations . To tall about rich individuals , you have to apply both tax rates.

Considering there is some confusion, can you please provide the article that states those things? Refundable credits usually aren't available at the business level, but again a lot may have changed. Are you just talking about a refund (aka what happens if you pay too much during the year). Or are you talking about the individual ?

And at the individual level, doubling the standard deduction helped his base - the boomers. This is the second or third time I've said this. No one has argued this. It is for his base, the childless boomers. I don't think there is an argument that can be made against this.

And, what you said was throwing shade on one party when it is rather clear that several Democrats and policies were directly (or very closely) related. The Republicans didn't help, sure, but don't pretend that both parties don't have out of control spending habits (see the national debt). And you are right, Republicans as much as Democrats only cater to the wants and needs of ~50% of people who have voted, which is their base - hence their spending habits. If you don't agree, you are on the other "side" which is a ridiculous mindset, but it is what we are dealing with (polarization).

Also, everything you mentioned about healthcare in regards to the ACA is absolutely true. Hard to see the doctor when you can't afford it. You will also have to forgive Americans when we don't have faith in the government system to make a better option after the garbage that was the ACA was imposed on us. And I swear I'm not going to let her know all the pain I have known

21-Feb-2020 23:20:47 - Last edited on 21-Feb-2020 23:46:30 by Averia Light

Averia Light

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Also as a side note,the ACA forced individuals to get insurance OR pay what is effectively a fine in their 1040 tax forms. So yes more people have insurance.

BUT most can't use it because they can't afford their deductible which is the amount they pay BEFORE insurance kicks in.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2016/10/26/obamacare-deductibles-are-on-the-rise-for-2017-along-with-monthly-premiums.html

"Deductibles for individuals enrolled in the lowest-priced Obamacare health plans will average more than $6,000 in 2017, the first time that threshold has been cracked in the three years that Affordable Care Act marketplaces have been in business, a new analysis finds.

Families enrolled in bronze plans will have average deductibles of $12,393, according to the study by the consumer insurance comparison site HealthPocket."

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-in-their-savings-accounts.html

"If your savings account balance is hovering at or below $1,000, you're not alone.

According to a 2017 GOBankingRates survey, more than half of Americans (57 percent) have less than $1,000 in their savings accounts.

$0 saved: 39 percent
Less than $1,000 saved: 18 percent
$1,000 to $4,999 saved: 12 percent
$5,000 to $9,999 saved: 6 percent
$10,000 or more saved: 25 percent"

This was the end of the Obama era before you somehow throw Trump in there. Trump did not make this any better, but considering there is an obvious bias, I went back to pre-Trump.

So great - more people have insurance but more than 50% can't afford to use it (more because the family deductible is 12k which hits the highest bracket above). Not to mention 12k is a huge amount that would make even more Americans second guess if they really need to see a doctor.

This ALSO isn't including the fact that insurance companies are denying coverage, but I am running out of space. And I swear I'm not going to let her know all the pain I have known

21-Feb-2020 23:33:20 - Last edited on 21-Feb-2020 23:36:12 by Averia Light

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Y Trump will lose 2020.