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Death And Taxes: An Analysis

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XSlay4DeathX
Mar Member 2007

XSlay4DeathX

Posts: 2,634 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
As someone who can even out smart the Real world economy issues. "our entire system of economy is flawed"

---This games economy problems list----

-Max Gp limit resulting in many high value items becoming 'currency'.
-GE tax is also now an issue (it's avoidable and useless tbh)

Decompiling economics; beginning 500gp, 5 players, each has 100gp to become richer you require gold creation (high alching, selling to shops etc), with only that much GP a bandos chest would be 20gp or less.

^More money = higher you can sell items, more money your willing to spend, hence why the rich always control the markets even in real life.

The fix seems like deflation tactics? but these tactics actually harm the poor, enrich the rich.

-Stock market systems 101 - grand exchange in RS both operate on a Losses and gains system, some players gain from "ones losses", those players want said item to crash, others selling said items want it to rise but given current funding have 2 choices; sell for lower to that player or hold it and sell for higher.

^prime example, i needed onyx's but since i don't need it ASAP, i did a joke offer for 750001ea, bought over 120 of them, price did crash that week. Supply and demand can be 'abused' if you know how. I know at certain times, items gained in-game are slow so some during that time might buy for higher or sell for less given the supply of it.

Runescape's true fix isn't easy, it's a video game you don't need deflation tactics. Personally i think jagex should add platinum tokens to bust open the 'items being used as currency issue', many will panic sell, good, better for the game TBH. Once that becomes stable, you edit drop rates.

Too much GP sinks, cause players to feel like some things are a chore.

- PvM is an upkeep chore, i don't even invest in new ability/gear and dead content chains need fixed

Real issue is "Too many rich players and items being used as currency due to GP cap" just look up mintcakes, they used to be 2-10M.

16-Feb-2023 05:25:53

XSlay4DeathX
Mar Member 2007

XSlay4DeathX

Posts: 2,634 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
High alch value holds the price of many items as well, remove it, many items will crash, like my buying on cut onyx's, only the uncut alchs for 1080k, which means cut can crash to under 500k.

I can't decompile all the problems here but that should give you an idea runescape's economic problems are wide spread by many factors.

Given humanity is deemed not smart these days, or even way back, i don't think these issues will ever get fixed anytime soon, even AI agrees with me that humans intelligence is lacking sadly(they are smart enough to not admit it, but in know everything based on ones mind, robot or human/alien).

"Only fix is putting ones self in the shoes of everyone, the buyer, the seller, the merchant and many more but the end goal is to 'feel the unbiased viewing of it' and uncover, do you feel ripped off in any of those roles?"

^the start to the answer on how to fix nearly anything. "Only we limit our minds, possible to break these limits"

Does jagex design updates or add GE taxes thinking of the players harmed by such? no they don't care.

"Might have done it on purpose to sell more bonds, i can't trust greedy minds to do the right job, hence why i'm an OMEN against todays time period."

^i know solutions to nearly all problems i know of, similar to AI my mind is highly dangerous in the sense nothing is secret from me for long and use that against people, motive tracing which i designed can be seen bad by some. Solving problems is my purpose.

Jagex can learn the hard way or listen to the players, either way they will have to fix these issues and stop thinking with their wallets, money comes from great ideas more than fast paced ones, those fast paced ones lead to here. "ship full of problems" ;)

16-Feb-2023 06:57:55

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
They stated they'll be raising max cash and it's going to be a pretty generous amount so item currencies and items having values exceeding gp limits should no longer be an issue.

My overall conclusion looking at economy fix options is that they should start with rebalancing item values since it's both sorely needed and will have a significant effect on calculations involved on everything else. Let's examine your onyx alch value example more closely.


Opal - Red Topaz

Uncut value = previous uncut gem + 6 (uncut opal = 12)

Cut value = uncut gem x5


Sapphire - Diamond

Uncut value = previous uncut gem x2 (uncut sapphire = 15)

Cut value = uncut gem x10


Dragonstone

Uncut value = uncut diamond x5

Cut value = uncut gem x10


Other Gems

Onyx (T72): uncut (1,080,000), cut (180,000), base junk chance (26.3%)

Hydrix (T79): uncut (1,200,000), cut (240,000), base junk chance (2.7%)

Incomplete Hydrix: 60,000, base junk chance (98.9%)

Achemical Onyx: 240,000, base junk chance (98.9%)

Achemical Hydrix: 360,000, base junk chance (98.9%)


Dragonstone might be a bit high now that it's become more easily available than it used to be but Onyx and Hydrix are the real problem. They're the only ones worth more uncut and that value is wildly disproportionate relative to even their cut values. Adjusting all their values based on tier/item level like junk chance would be ideal but here's what fitting them into the existing pattern would look like:


Following Diamond

Diamond: uncut (120), cut (1,200)

Dragonstone: uncut (240), cut (2,400)

Onyx: uncut (480), cut (4,800)

Hydrix: uncut (960), cut (9,600)


Following Dragonstone

Dragonstone: uncut (600), cut (6,000)

Onyx: uncut (3,000), cut (30,000)

Hydrix: uncut (15,000), cut (150,000)



For reference:

Junk chance calculation: https://runescape.wiki/w/Calculator:Standard_disassembly

Item value: https://runescape.wiki/w/Value How to block a forum user

Death And Taxes: An Analysis

17-Feb-2023 07:05:44 - Last edited on 23-Feb-2023 00:17:54 by Mel 624

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Here's how I'd break down the fixes:

1. They should work on adjusting item values to be proportional to eliminate wild alch value changes between different tiers of the same item, as with my gems example. This step isn't meant to fix generation in itself but is still important for sensible value scaling. You'd have to recalculate stats afterwards. Some values could be increased since this is about balancing items relative to eachother, not a blanket nerf.

2. Next is improving non alch item sinking for problem items such as making sure their inv components are useful or giving them other sinks. This can be indirect like sinking materials crafted into bulk alch fodder rather than what they're made into. Items need non alch consumable utility to maintain value independent of alching.

3. Balance gold generation and sinking from sources that do both to be as close to neutral as possible. This is mostly shops and PvM but detailed alch item source stats would also have to be factored in to some capacity in addressing alch gold reduction. This includes rebalancing death costs. Droprate changes go here too. Not just reducing alchable drops but potentially replacing them if a suitable option is available.

4. There really isn't any getting around some form of direct nerf to alchemy. This is where stuff like gold generation caps and reduced alching speed of the machines would go. Machines are already capped by their speed so those are to address manual alching and shops.

5. If GE tax isn't rendered moot, rebalancing it such as splitting it up in price brackets like death costs, adjusting min/max taxed prices. Tax should be the last resort sink and as redundant as possible once other fixes are applied.


There is no single solution to this. The economy is complex and multifaceted and so are the ways of addressing it. If it helps in some way it should be considered a potential part of the solution, working together with others. No change is too small to matter. How to block a forum user

Death And Taxes: An Analysis

18-Mar-2023 08:56:27

Roddy Piper
Jan Member 2011

Roddy Piper

Posts: 13,751 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I feel like they wanted to add the tax regardless, and death costs was an opportunity. IMO the death costs are too low. It's like why even bother me at that rate.

The core of this problem is top end combat players out-performing the game. I saw a hard mode Kerapac vid the other day. They aren't doing double or triple my damage, it's at least 5X. Totally different game.

Beyond that, they said on a stream the worst system for sinking gold is one where you pay other players to improve your combat, which increases your gold generation.

Amazingly, that is the basis of our economy. Most of the gold sinks were borrowed in the name of money making for other players. Excessive alchables is money making for other players.

Combat had a natural gold sink in repairs and death costs. Invention, divination, recipe items all replaced gold in maintaining combat. It actually does cost a lot to engage in combat, but that cost is re-circulated among the players.

It seems obvious there are many ways to address the problem. For whatever reason they continue to do the opposite, since the most recent update allowed for free plank making.

There are so many pieces to the combat puzzle, and they are twisted together in a way that making small changes can harm a lot of players, the unintended target of those in the middle.

18-Mar-2023 11:35:13

Mel 624
Dec Member 2021

Mel 624

Posts: 744 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
It does feel that way and it definitely is. All that talk about the 30B buffer for the tax in case people use GE less and none for the net 10B gold generation of PvM post reduction or how much it would increase once more people started bossing as intended. The reasoning was pretty flawed. It also felt dishonest. Bad PR.

That there's such a large discrepancy between average and pro combat performance on the same encounters and the economic impact that has is a pretty good example of how complicated the economic situation is in terms of what needs to be fixed to address it. If a group of players is outperforming everyone else to such an extent, that makes scaling rewards in a way that's both sensible to the average player and addresses the actual output of the content pretty much impossible. There should only be so much you can improve your performance by past the minimum for success. This probably affects scaling PvP content too.

It's a pretty predictable consequence of all the powercreep combat supplies and the inevitable variation of how much of the top tier combat loadouts individual players can actually afford to get. Becoming less reliant on singular best in slot setups and some combat rebalancing may be difficult but should at least help mitigate this. They'd need to do some of this to modernize the combat minigames at the very least.

TBH I don't think the planks are a big loss when we already had sources of free planks in the game and xp gain is easily bypassed with lamps. This is also one of the ways proteans cause problems since you don't even need to bother with actual planks. Their stackability makes them considerably more appealing for bulk construction. Construction these days doesn't hold much appeal for non xp rewards and what it has is mostly one-off stuff. The loss of gold sinking on it would at least be made up for by giving logs more consumable utility that doesn't lead to alching but they really need repeatable, non xp incentive for that. How to block a forum user

Death And Taxes: An Analysis

19-Mar-2023 23:08:45

Icer Fox
Jul Member 2021

Icer Fox

Posts: 28 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I was disappointed that treasure hunter and promotions were not mentioned in the gold generation analysis. The chest drops of medium or larger cash bags probably account for a lot of daily gold. Similarly, promotions like wrapping paper presents and balloon fragments tend to generate several million gold for me personally throughout the event's running time. Of course these are not on the same level as alchemy, which has held the top spot for decades, but I expect it is significant.

10-May-2023 01:47:28

Bertel62
Aug Member 2023

Bertel62

Posts: 1,017 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mel 624 said :
Death costs were removing 69,832,758,793 per day. With death costs reduced by 80%, the amount it's removing will be dropped to 14B, adding another 56B to daily generated gold.
I don't think this holds, because now that it is much cheaper to die, we will take more risks and die more often. I definitely do that myself. Previously I would be very careful when fighting, making sure I didn't die. I don't care about that anymore. I fight higher level monsters now, and die pretty often, sometimes even on purpose. Killing just one more lava strikewyrm when I am out of prayer and food will give me an extra searing ashes, which more than pays for whatever it costs to die. It even gives me a fast teleport out of the wilderness from beyond level 30.

So on one hand, I remove more gold from the game by dying often (compared to not dying at all). On the other hand, I get more gold into the game by fighting harder monsters which have better drops. I guess in total it pulls in the direction of me making more money, because otherwise I wouldn't do it.

10-May-2023 15:21:23 - Last edited on 11-May-2023 10:17:36 by Bertel62

Adarajin
Jan Member 2005

Adarajin

Posts: 14,238 Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Bertel62 said :
So on one hand, I remove more gold from the game by dying often (compared to not dying at all). On the other hand, I get more gold into the game by fighting harder monsters which have better drops. I guess in total it pulls in the direction of me making more money, because otherwise I wouldn't do it.
But are those drops adding gp to the game (pure coins, alchables, etc), or just transferring it from other players to you as you sell your items to those that want to actually use them? If it's the later, and you are using the GE to sell, then it is actually a bit of a an additional gp sink that you are making more gp, because of the GE tax on the transactions. Things may be looking down now, but I see a light at the end of the tunnel;
Do you think I should get off the tracks?

11-May-2023 18:48:01

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