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Death of Agency & Roleplay

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Last Prophet

Last Prophet

Posts: 3,433 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hi there, Lorums.

It's been a while.

So anyway, I've returned in a limited capacity to post about the crazy shit going down in Gielinor. But this post is more about the direction of the story rather than any particular plot point in it.

As a Saradominist, I don't think I need to talk too much to where my loyalties lie. But now, given the state of things in the narrative of RuneScape, I'm feeling a bit like an outsider to the story. As weirdly happy as I am about the ending of the most recent quest, I'm starting to feel like my decisions never really mattered to begin with.

Ordinarily, I would chalk this one up to my distancing myself from the game, because, well, I have been away for years -- but I'm seeing that in one way or another, there's a general sense of disillusionment with the 6th Age story.

Far too often, I see "there should never have been factions/decisions to help factions/faction-related quest threads" being thrown around, especially following the events of Azzanadra's Quest, and the sentiment is something I am beginning to agree with.

I don't really take issue with Jagex's heavy handed storytelling; fact is, we knew our gods were not likely to make it to the end. But there's a feeling now that it is possible to choose the wrong faction, and by that I mean: Some factions are simply going to screw you over. Other factions are going to die without a chance.

And this, in my view, is poor game design.

But the real tragedy here is the loss of roleplay. We were given factions as a means of categorising ourselves in the context of roleplay, only for these factions to turn on us or die unceremoniously. As much as the player interacts with the story, the story is now forcefully directing us towards an unsatisfactory conclusion.

Overall, the story feels disjointed, poorly managed, and contradictory to itself. It's a bad day in Roleplayland when a Saradominist has to think to himself, "what would be the ideal lose scenario for our faction?"
+
Last Prophet
+

~Creator of
Ikadia the Exile
~

02-Mar-2021 01:41:57

Roland Lyons
Mar Member 2014

Roland Lyons

Posts: 3,475 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I have a few thoughts on this. Jagex has stated in the stream for EGWD and Azzanadra's Quest that they're moving away from unique choices in quests because it's not viable for a MMO for different players to have completely different worlds and situations due to their quest choices. Plus it cuts down on dev time. It's sad, and while I don't fully agree with it, I understand.

Runescape at it's start was not a faction based MMO like WoW or SWTOR. A player could call themselves a follower of a particular god, but the only thing close to declaring yourself a part of that god faction was your book choice at the end of Horror of the Deep and your choice of god in the Mage Arena miniquest, even then you would aim to get all the books eventually and you would be eventually able to acquire all the Mage Arena spells.

There were some interesting pieces of dialogue you could pick if you wanted to roleplay in certain quests, for example you can choose to tell Sigmund during I believe it was Another Slice of Ham that you are not a follower of Saradomin when he tries to give you a speech on why the goblins and dwarves should be eliminated in the name of Saradomin, but if you are a Saradominist, you can tell him he's completely lost the plot of the religion with his racism. Also during Haunted Mine you can declare your religious views to the Zealot, but only by saying your Saradominist or Guthixian can you start the quest, saying your Zamorakian has him shove you off. But I guess you could argue that for a Zamorakian, deception isn't forbidden, but rather in some cases, encouraged by your beliefs.

I appreciate the emissary faction choices at the start of the Sixth Age and what they tried to do. I like how in a few quests they effect dialogue, Death of Chivalry, Missing Presumed Death, and Fate of the Gods. Godless even got unique dialogue in Hero's Welcome.

I'll continue next post, because I have a lot of thoughts on this.
I will protect Gielinor. Zaros has no love for its people.

-Saradomin, Polemarchos Autokrator

02-Mar-2021 02:44:52

Dennorak
Jul Member 2020

Dennorak

Posts: 4,414 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jagex is specifically doing away with meaningful player choice on the basis of it being an absolute nightmare to do justice content wise.

Jagex really hasn’t been able to deliver consistent content as is, let alone having to take player choice into account.

I do think dialogue options are needed but the idea that Zaros should not be allowed to... well, act like Zaros because the player can declare support for his faction is wrong IMO.

That being said, dialogue indicating your faction choice *should* be used, it’s just not feasible to have an actual impact on the flow of the story.
Zamorakian Lorehound, Flame of Chaos member, Bilrach enthusiast

02-Mar-2021 03:01:14 - Last edited on 02-Mar-2021 03:03:38 by Dennorak

Roland Lyons
Mar Member 2014

Roland Lyons

Posts: 3,475 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Unique choices have existed in a small few quests since the days of RS Classic as it is now known. Both Hazeel Cult and Temple of Ikov feature branching paths depending on the choices you make. This was honestly my first encounter with branching paths in RPGs as before all I had played is Pokemon and Dragon Quest, two games with stylistically linear choices. Not bad games, but this, while small, was new to me as a child, able to effect endings with your choices. I of course sided with the Carnilleans and Guardians of Armadyl in both cases, being the little boyscout I am. Of course only to find some jerk named Movario went and stole the Staff of Armadyl for Lucien in While Guthix Sleeps. Wait, why did we hire this guy as an Archaeology Guild consultant again? Did we just get memory holed about his dirty track record?

At the same time, I was happy to see my Hazeel Cult choice at the very least had some effect! Hazeel was noticeably absent during the Ritual of Rejuvenation!

...Well that was until Dishonor Among Thieves brought him back so the writers could do something with his character and not just be a background prop for those who sided with the Cult during the quest. Again, it sucks, I don't fully agree with it, but I understand and respect the choice.

Oh where was I? Ah yes the Sixth Age emissary factions, a way for the players to actually declare their character's god faction in a world that's history is written with the blood of numerous religious conflicts. You could even say that pretty much ever major war and conflict in Gielinor was, is, and likely will be religious in some way, shape or form, and not even just the God Wars. Now we can declare where we stand... to a limited degree.
I will protect Gielinor. Zaros has no love for its people.

-Saradomin, Polemarchos Autokrator

02-Mar-2021 03:03:35

Hazeel

Hazeel

Posts: 6,735 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The most they could feasibly do is something where the player ends up guiding the direction of Gielinor and certain leaders have flavored dialogue about running their various territories with that mindset.

The problem really is factions. You could have an end-game quest where things are resolved and a Saradominist lives in a world where all the leaders are trying to make Gielinor an orderly and peaceful place, but you can't make a scenario where the player's chosen God wins because that means the God is too essential to do anything meaningful with. They can't turn on the player, they can't change their ideals, they can't die, and removing the threat of death really lowers the stakes. Suddenly the Gods serve the whim of the player to satisfy their choice and that just doesn't work.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

02-Mar-2021 03:27:23

Roland Lyons
Mar Member 2014

Roland Lyons

Posts: 3,475 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I will always appreciate the long saga of quests that take place between TWW and SE, of which I have dubbed "The Second God Wars," and the three world events they contained. This was the most player agency and roleplaying the game has ever had and one of my favorite eras of questing, though it was not without flaws.

Why would a Zamorakian even bother helping Sir Owen and Saradomin during Death of Chivalry? The logical choice would be walk away.

Why even bother helping Zamorak with his heist as a Saradominist or even Armadylian? I dunno, guess you just want that cape back.

Of course in both cases you can tell them off or betray them, but you still helped them alogn until that point.

And the world events, while great ideas, were pretty much settled from day 1, the leading factions in all cases never lost the lead no matter what. The weeks that followed were more or less formalities. Saradomin defeats Zamorak and goes up a tier, Armadyl kills Bandos, and Vorago kills Tuska. All outcomes we could predict from day 1 in each scenario.

Now Sliske's Endgame and the three quests leading up to it in 2016 were amazing. This I feel was the last hurrah for this period. All your previous choices in world events and quests effected dialogue choices and the gods' attitudes towards you. Allowing you to make your ultimate pledge of allegiance to your chosen faction. Your decision decides who gets the Stone of Jas!

...And then the Dragonkin destroy it. Rendering it null, but hey at least your chosen god gets to boast they won Sliske's Pointless game? And your allegiance is set in stone right? It must be! They even let you change your canon choice once in case you want to change your mind.

Aaaaaand your choices never come up again. At this point in the Elder God arc, your choices in previous quests mean fuckall. Around this time, Jagex opted for a more linear style when it comes to quest series.
I will protect Gielinor. Zaros has no love for its people.

-Saradomin, Polemarchos Autokrator

02-Mar-2021 03:34:12

Last Prophet

Last Prophet

Posts: 3,433 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Roland Lyons said :
I have a few thoughts on this. Jagex has stated in the stream for EGWD and Azzanadra's Quest that they're moving away from unique choices in quests because it's not viable for a MMO for different players to have completely different worlds and situations due to their quest choices. Plus it cuts down on dev time. It's sad, and while I don't fully agree with it, I understand.


I must have missed this.

Well, that's that, then, isn't it?

I just find it disappointing that the 6th Age was sold to us as this ambitious, player-driven narrative which turned out to be maybe too ambitious and now much less player-driven.

Of your other post, you're right ofc that certain plot threads need to come together for quests to make sense, so you'll get characters like Movario who steal the SoA, and Hazeel who returns regardless of what actions you took. But these in my mind were never intended to be decisions with any real implications.

I think we all knew the problems that would arise from the 6th Age model that Jagex had in mind and maybe this is that just coming to roost. It's just so disappointing.
+
Last Prophet
+

~Creator of
Ikadia the Exile
~

02-Mar-2021 03:35:08 - Last edited on 02-Mar-2021 03:38:29 by Last Prophet

Last Prophet

Last Prophet

Posts: 3,433 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Dennorak said :
Jagex really hasn’t been able to deliver consistent content as is, let alone having to take player choice into account.


I suspect this plays a much larger part in all of this than we realize. I mean, even in my last days in RS the quests were hardly a trickle. Now, they're almost an event unto themselves.

It's really a shame, hey?
+
Last Prophet
+

~Creator of
Ikadia the Exile
~

02-Mar-2021 03:43:42

Roland Lyons
Mar Member 2014

Roland Lyons

Posts: 3,475 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
So it's safe to say now that your Endgame choices will never come up again. Thus rendering the option of changing your canon choice utterly pointless.

Sure my lord Saradomin may have his daughter back, and canonically, I have acquired one of Armadyl's feathers due to his entourage being ejected from the maze in the second half, I helped kill a few of Zamorak's black knights in the encounter with my lord Saradomin, helped Armadyl cage a dragonkin, encouraged an alliance between Seren and Armadyl, defended Seren against Zamorak, and then there was some convoluted deal regarding Saradomin's daughter with a fully powered Zaros and Seren. I think it was ultimately Seren who returned Adrasteia? Doesn't matter I guess

Will any of the choices I made in the maze ever come up again? No, probably not, the flashback cutscene in Desperate Times didn't even have the player's chosen God there.

Now do I blame the developers? No, again, I'm saddened by the choice, but I understand, because this is a thing that even large AAA multi million dollar single player games struggle with. The shitshow that was Mass Effect 3 needs no introduction, and I'm sorry to say that even one of my favorite games of the last generation, the Witcher 3 even struggled with this. I played the Witcher Trilogy back to back and I was saddened that my choices in the first two games barely had an impact. I strengthened the Northern Kingdoms as much as I could by siding with the Order ofthe Flaming Rose in the Witcher 1 and the Blue Stripes in the Witcher 2 whiel rescuing Princess Anies(sp?), but then Witcher 3 really gave me no choice but to let Nilfgaard conquer them because Radovid went insane, and there's no way I'm selling my bro Roche out to Dijkstra. Not to mention Radovid winning feels less like a choice and more like a failure state. At least Temeria survives, they were all I cared about.

But I digress
I will protect Gielinor. Zaros has no love for its people.

-Saradomin, Polemarchos Autokrator

02-Mar-2021 04:02:49

Hazeel

Hazeel

Posts: 6,735 Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The problems when writing a choice based story are apparent, but I think removing them comes with its own issues.

Something I'm worried about is losing a sense of gray morality if quests become more linear. Player choice allows for a lot more freedom when writing morally gray characters because you don't need to worry about making them too sympathetic. The last thing you want is the player supporting the villain and wishing for their own character's demise because they think the antagonist is going about things the right way.

The fundamental reason why we can't join the Elder Gods and why such an option is unnecessary is because the Elder Gods are not morally gray compared to the younger Gods. They seek the destruction of all life for their own survival and that's something that is inherently against any living being's wishes.

So what do you do as writers if you're fully committed to making Zaros an antagonist? If you make him too morally gray and sympathetic, you'll leave a lot of players feeling unsatisfied as they go against their own self interest and wishes for no real reason. On the other hand, if you make Zaros wholly evil...well that's not as interesting, is it? That's the whole reason why a lot of Fifth Age antagonists weren't that memorable as characters tbh. They were little more than meat walls for the WG to blast through.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

02-Mar-2021 04:06:45 - Last edited on 02-Mar-2021 04:15:39 by Hazeel

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