forums.rs

Forums

Evolution of Combat Transcript Thread is locked

Quick find code: 254-255-265-65075761

of 145
2wot 2886em

2wot 2886em

Posts: 9 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
*******BELOW, IS A FORMIDABLE ESSAY THAT CRITIQUES THE ******* *******DEVOLUTION OF COMBAT BETTER THAN I AT THE TIME.*******

http://averagerunescape.blogspot.***/2012/07/evolution-of-combat-3-combat-xp-rates.html


The Evolution of Combat #3: Combat XP Rates
OK gang, time to talk about the Evolution of Combat's dirty little secret. Although the Beta is still evolving, there is a general perception out there that XP rates in PvM combat have sunk dramatically.


Part of the reason for this is the widely-panned XP penalty. I quote below from Mod Rathe's forum post describing the penalty:

The XP reduction kicks in based on comparing your offensive stat to the enemy Defence level, and in fact does not use your overall combat level. Here is an example:
I have 99 Attack, 99 Defence and 1 Magic. I Mage an NPC with 50 Defence, and I have selected to Mage defensively, so gaining Magic and Defence XP. Let's say this NPC awards 200 XP, therefore 50% (100 XP) is for Magic and 50% (100 XP) is for Defence. My Defence skill is more than 30 levels above the NPC so this XP is reduced down to 10% (10 XP). However, my Magic skill is less than 30 levels away from the NPC so I get 100% of my Magic XP (100 XP). I am awarded 10 Defence XP and 100 Magic XP. The reduction is only applied down, never up. So if I kill an NPC that is 50 levels higher than my offence and defence skill, I will be awarded 100% of the XP. However, if my offence and defence skills are 30+ levels above the NPC I kill, I shall only be awarded 10% of the XP.

Distilling all that down, you attack a monster with a method of combat: Attack, Strength, Defence, Ranged, or Magic. Your skill level in that stat is compared to the monster's Defence stat. If the difference between those two stats is greater than 30 levels (although it becomes greater than 50 at some undefined point as your stats rise), then you suffer the XP penalty

29-Nov-2012 20:39:18 - Last edited on 29-Nov-2012 21:00:20 by 2wot 2886em

2wot 2886em

2wot 2886em

Posts: 9 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
and only get 10% of the normal XP for killing that monster. The exception to this rule, starting with the 4 July update to the Beta servers, is that when on a Slayer task, full XP is given regardless of the level difference.


My problem with this penalty is several-fold. First, if we're gonna have the penalty, then the monster's Defence stat needs to be completely transparent, because you can't figure it out a priori just based on the displayed combat level. Second, Jagex has never defined at exactly what point the penalty difference changes from 30 levels to 50 levels. For something this important, the switchover point should be made crystal clear. Third, and most importantly, I just disagree with the penalty philosophically. You have always been able to train on whatever monster you wanted to, and it is simply anti-free choice to restrict what players are "allowed" to fight. There is already a built-in penalty for fighting weak monsters, namely crappy drop tables. You get easy XP, but there is no profit. Players fight higher-leveled creatures (and assume more risk to gear and consume more supplies) because of the potential drop rewards, not because they are the most efficient method of training.


Enough philosophy. I'm a scientist by day, and I believe in testing hypotheses experimentally. To that end, I've generated some data that I think will suffice to demonstrate the XP nerfing in the Beta. I took on a typical monster for someone with my stats (see below for the relevant levels): black demons. I killed 10 of each in both the live game and the Beta and timed how long it took and how much XP I got. In the Beta, I did it both with and without use of the ability bar. Since the demon's weaknesses are different in each case, different gear was required. I tried to use a setup for a player typical of my level and of average financial resources, rather than the best god-like gear available for free in the Beta. It's all well and good to fight in

29-Nov-2012 20:49:49

2wot 2886em

2wot 2886em

Posts: 9 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
full torva, but when the rubber meets the road, that's beyond the financial means of most players. One final note: this test was conducted after the 4 July update to the Beta, when nominally many issues (including lifepoints for black demons) have been fixed to Jagex's satisfaction.


Stat Levels: 81 Att, 81 Str, 80 Def, 79 Ran, 94 Mag, 80 Pray, 70 Summ
Combat Level: 111 (Live), 176 (Beta)
Date of Test: 5 July 2012


Live Game
Gear: proselyte tasset/hauberk, Helm of Neitiznot, obsidian cape, dragon boots, Culinaromancer's gloves 10, abyssal whip/dragon defender
Inventory: 3 rocktails, super attack (4), super strength (4), holy wrench, prayer potions (4)
Strategy: attack with melee (training Attack), pray Deflect Melee to avoid all damage
Time for 10 kills: 6:17
XP for 10 kills: 6280 Attack, 2090 Constitution
Supplies consumed: 1 sip each super attack/strength, 1 sip prayer potion


Beta - No Abilities
Gear: black d'hide body/chaps/vambraces, snakeskin boots, Archer helm, amulet of ranging, book of balance, Ava's accumulator, rune crossbow/offhand rune crossbow/adamant bolts
Inventory: ranging potion (4), sharks
Strategy: attack with Ranged, playing to monster's supposed weakness to bolts; tank damage since it can't be fully blocked by protect/deflect prayers
Time for 10 kills: 12:15
XP for 10 kills: 1540 Ranged, 520 Constitution
Supplies consumed: 10 sharks, 2 sips ranging potion


Beta - Full Use of Abilities
Same gear/inventory/strategy as Beta with No Abilities
Time for 10 kills: 7:27
XP for 10 kills: 1540 Ranged, 520 Constitution
Supplies consumed: 1 sip ranging potion

Comments: It's pretty clear that the Beta cannot hope to compete even on such an average task with average gear. Just AFKing it in the Beta is simply not an option -- it took twice as long for the same number of kills and massive supply consumption. Going crazy using abilities brought the time closer to parity with the live game, but was still a full minute slower. Healing

29-Nov-2012 20:51:12

2wot 2886em

2wot 2886em

Posts: 9 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
was achieved without food by using the Regenerate ability. But in every case, the Beta offered 4x less combat xp, presumably because I suffered the xp penalty -- even though I considered these fair fights. Who wants to fight this way? Playing the game with constant button mashing to not even achieve parity in training = FAIL.



UPDATE: over on this forum thread:


300-301-741-63854308


There is a comment from Mod Avatar stating that currently ALL monster combat levels in the Beta are exactly 50% offense and 50% defense. So the Defence level can be assumed to be the combat level minus two divided by two.


So those level 140 black demons have (140-2)/2 = 69 Defence, which means I *was* getting full combat XP in the Beta for killing them. This problem is worse than I thought. Bottom line is that two things need to happen immediately for PvM combat to be viable, at least based on my black demon sample:


1. Black demon lifepoints need to be cut in half to bring the "AFK" kill rate in line with where it is in the live game. You should not be penalized in kill rate, which directly impacts Slayer XP rate, for choosing to AFK it and spend time chatting with your friends/clan/whatever, you should be rewarded for being more hands-on with abilities. Less stick, more carrot.
2. The XP rate per damage dealt needs to be increased at least 8-10x to even hope to bring parity with the live game. 200-ish combat XP for a monster with ~7600 LP just ain't right.


If combat XP rates are going to be 8-10K per hour, by my calculations it would take nearly 55 days of round-the-clock play just to get a single combat stat from 1 to 99. Insane.


I would post this as a bug in-game, but I have seen only radio silence from Jagex about whether or not all of this is intentional. If it isn't, I'll report it as a bug. If it is, God have mercy on our souls.
Posted 5th July by Keith
Labels: combat

29-Nov-2012 20:52:33

Shadow_Gaze

Shadow_Gaze

Posts: 152 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I don't know but the number of players is extremely low and no the bots aren't gone - they are still there. Honestly I logged on and I wasn't even sure what to do, gambling with what is left of my gear just doesn't appeal to me - even though I have taken serious hits on the price.

Honestly, I think the excitement for the game is gone now. I feel like I have to relearn the game I have been playing for nearly 5 years, summoning is no good anymore, prayer isn't affective like it was - wondering what the point is now?

29-Nov-2012 23:47:28 - Last edited on 29-Nov-2012 23:48:05 by Shadow_Gaze

Stairwa2Hevn

Stairwa2Hevn

Posts: 7 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
after almost 9 YEARS of work and gameplay i got my 99 defence on NOV19TH, the day before that UNFORTUNATE UPDATE.
I HAVN'T PLAYED since the 20th and I am SAD and a MAD about this update that made me quit. First off that is not evolving the game, this is completely CHANGING IT.
What made me start runescape aka :( RUINEDSCAPE) at first was it's orginiality and simplicity, ALL GONE NOW.

I LOST ALOT OF FRIENDS DUE TO THIS UPDATE, MY FRIENDS LOST ALOT OF THEIR FRIENDS DUE TO THIS UPDATE!
The owners of this community don't care about opinions or how a player feels. Money talks now a days why would they?
But let me tell you ; My wallet is done paying and MY TIME WON'T BE WASTED ON A GAME I CAN'T FIND PASSION FOR ANYMORE.
1 LESS MEMBERSHIP and hundreds to come I bet AND HOPE.

PS: what's the idea, I was level 94 on good old runescape and now level 196 ?
1prayer,70attack,70strength,94hitpoints,95ranged,99defence,50magic : /

30-Nov-2012 01:41:29 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2012 01:52:54 by Stairwa2Hevn

Stairwa2Hevn

Stairwa2Hevn

Posts: 7 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
after almost 9 YEARS of work and gameplay i got my 99 defence on NOV19TH, the day before that UNFORTUNATE UPDATE.
I HAVN'T PLAYED since the 20th and I am SAD and a MAD about this update that made me quit. First off that is not evolving the game, this is completely CHANGING IT.
What made me start runescape akaRUINEDSCAPE) at first was it's orginiality and simplicity, ALL GONE NOW.

I LOST ALOT OF FRIENDS DUE TO THIS UPDATE, MY FRIENDS LOST ALOT OF THEIR FRIENDS DUE TO THIS UPDATE!
The owners of this community don't care about opinions or how players feel. Money talks now a days why would they?
But let me tell you ; My wallet is done paying and MY TIME WON'T BE WASTED ON A GAME I CAN'T FIND PASSION FOR ANYMORE.
1 LESS MEMBERSHIP and hundreds to come I bet AND HOPE.

PS: what's the idea, I was level 94 on good old runescape and now level 196 ?
1prayer,70attack,70strength,94hitpoints,95ranged,99defence,50magic : /

30-Nov-2012 01:50:38 - Last edited on 30-Nov-2012 01:53:28 by Stairwa2Hevn

Chaos l Lord

Chaos l Lord

Posts: 3 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
1: I didn't like eoc at first, learned how to use the abilities and the ability bar. It did make skilling easier to, i don't see EOC as a very big update actually because nothing really changed in gameplay except for the abilities in my opinion. Tough i hate the Grand Exchange (glitch or bug or i don't know) wich says : 100'000 gp to an item wich u sell for less then 50'000.
when will this be fixed that you can sell u'r items without making a big loss of it?

2: I do like the way Lower Level people can get a quite nice amount of money with combat. in RS2 it was a nice achievement to kill a few iron dragons without using a whole inventory of food or something like that, now you don't even need food :D

3: i think Pking is Way to hard, tried it several times but people keep 'tanking' or healing whole the time with their abilities. Maybe is this a nice idea that in high rish wilderness worlds Abilities are toggled off in wilderness.

4: There are way to many botters now. Before eoc they were at the Green Dragons or at the stronghold of security. Now they are everywhere, (some examples: Mature Grotworms are overcrowded with them, Stronghold of security, Relleka Slayer dungeon) Couldn't there be a bit more of supervising in those areas? I reported some bots a few times once a day and after 2-3 weeks i saw them 20 combat levels higher at the same spot, same armour ...

5: I like eoc, Keep up the good work Jagex!

Greetings CD I Devil ;) ;) ;)

30-Nov-2012 03:15:09

Quick find code: 254-255-265-65075761 Back to Top