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The Vagrancy Act 1824

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Aeroxmaster

Aeroxmaster

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What are your opinions on The Vagrancy Act 1824?



This makes it an offence to sleep rough or beg.

I do note however that when coronavirus first started, all sleepers were housed.

The dilemma I guess then is whether everyone should put in a little more to assist with these individuals and/or if there should be better provision of mental health services, or if the status quo is perhaps as good as it can get for now. Perhaps the social attitudes to housing and right to housing may also need to change?

What are your opinions?

27-Feb-2021 11:06:32

FiFi LaFeles

FiFi LaFeles

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Does anyone have a "right" to housing or should individuals be responsible for their own arrangements?

Are some people somehow more deserving than others? They are all equal in their homelessness, no?

For instance, this couple exercised their "right" to have children so they went ahead and bred prolifically in the full knowledge that securing permanent accommodation for such a large household would one day prove problematical - now they are asserting they have a "right" to be housed - somewhere, by someone.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/dumfries-couple-13-kids-facing-23565824

On the other hand you have this person .... is she more deserving, does she have a "right"?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ex-great-britain-swimmer-sleeping-23575329

And what to do with folk who refuse to live anywhere but on the streets (they do exist, surprisingly). Should they be forced to live in a house/flat because we don't want our Vagrancy Laws broken?

Then there's people who may have mental illness, or dependencies or are just downright mutts who have the "right" to be housed next door to people whose lives they make a misery by their behaviours. What about the "rights" of nearby residents, to they trump the "rights" of the homeless?

So many questions, too few answers.
Le Chat Guerrier

Bwian's Towel & Grief Shop

27-Feb-2021 12:22:43

NexOrigin

NexOrigin

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If it's a requirement that you sleep indoors, then the government should be providing housing to those who do not have any.


You can't make something illegal to not have, without providing what it is that you're required to have, to those who do not have it.


If everyone is required to have ID, then the government has to provide that ID to those who don't have any.

If everyone is required to wear pants, then the government has to provide pants to those who don't have any.

If everyone is required to sleep inside, then the government has to provide an "inside" for those who don't have one. I'm better than you, but that doesn't mean you're not great! :)

27-Feb-2021 15:34:52

FiFi LaFeles

FiFi LaFeles

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What then to do with the people who say "This inside that you have provided me with - I don't like it. I want a bigger inside, or one located somewhere near my Mum, or an inside with an outside garden, or an inside with a private bathroom... etc"

Do they have a right to demand someone provides them with an inside which suits their personal preferences?

Because that's exactly what they will then go on to demand as their 'right' to have provided to them in many instances.
Le Chat Guerrier

Bwian's Towel & Grief Shop

27-Feb-2021 15:54:01

NexOrigin

NexOrigin

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FiFi LaFeles said :
What then to do with the people who say "This inside that you have provided me with - I don't like it. I want a bigger inside, or one located somewhere near my Mum, or an inside with an outside garden, or an inside with a private bathroom... etc" If you want nicer pants than the standard government issued pants, then go out and earn some money and buy a nice pair of pants. You're not required to wear fancy pants, you're only required to wear pants. If you want fancy pants, then that's something you have to obtain yourself. I'm better than you, but that doesn't mean you're not great! :)

27-Feb-2021 15:56:53

NexOrigin

NexOrigin

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Just so you're aware, I'm not advocating "free stuff" for everyone. I don't think sleeping rough should be illegal. But if it's going to be an offence to not have a place to sleep, then the government should be providing a place to sleep.

It's like when the police in Montreal were issuing tickets for curfew violations to homeless people because the homeless shelters were forced to close down by the government. They took away the only "inside" these people had, and then made it illegal to be outside.

That's just wrong on so many levels. I'm better than you, but that doesn't mean you're not great! :)

27-Feb-2021 16:02:12

FiFi LaFeles

FiFi LaFeles

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"Fancy pants" made me smile.

Yes, I agree with the logic that if it is a legal requirement to sleep inside then an inside should be made available to all persons who cannot source one for themselves by the usual means.

A basic small room, clean bed and access to bathroom facilities (a Hostel by any other name) should cover the requirement but, human nature being what it is, there will doubtless be claims that this is not enough.

In many cases it certainly won't be enough; an overnight bed is one thing but what does a frail 80 year old do during the daytime to get off the streets and keep safe and warm. Or a parent with small children.

Wherever a Govt draws the line at what they consider is 'enough' there'll always be do-gooders who disagree and want every person permanently housed, not just overnight. Certainly here there simply isn't enough useable housing to manage this and, in any case, it won't be near enough to Mum, or have a garden for the kiddies, or be near the preferred school, or have an upstairs bathroom, or be near a bus stop or train station ... and so on.

Solving one small piece of the problem just open up a plethora of other problems and demands and 'rights'.

The Vagrancy Law is an ass.
Le Chat Guerrier

Bwian's Towel & Grief Shop

27-Feb-2021 16:35:55

Aeroxmaster

Aeroxmaster

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I go on the train, and now I've noticed there are pre-recorded messages saying "do not give money to the beggars" (words to that effect). They explain that a lot of it is going to organised crime.

Be aware that there are actually a number of people that are fake homeless. Doing it to make money.

But on to the real homeless - I mean, it's a sticky subject. The thing is, things are provided to prevent rough sleeping. What are they? An education, as well as jobcentres. Do that, then pay for the accommodation. If you refuse, then you are basically saying "make me stay on the streets"...

So unless there's a genuine reason why you can't comply with that principle, then it could be argued that it is the fault of the individual. However, I am aware that for a number of individuals, they become homeless through no fault of their own, which is a sad set of circumstances :(

14-Mar-2021 19:18:53

Archaeox
Dec Member 2011

Archaeox

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Aeroxmaster said :
Be aware that there are actually a number of people that are fake homeless. Doing it to make money.
No s__t, Sherlock.

Thirty years ago when I was at university in London, I walked past Euston Station on my way to/from lectures every day.

It was not unusual to see the beggars from Tottenham Court Roads tidying themselves up to take the train back to their homes in the suburbs.
~~~~ Just another victim of the ambient morality ~~~~

~~ Founder of the Caped Carousers quest cape clan ~~

!! Slava Ukraini - heroyam slava !!

14-Mar-2021 19:54:28

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