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Philosophy: free will?

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Kopaka
Dec Member 2023

Kopaka

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There are broadly speaking three categories of beliefs on this subject:

Libertarian free will

This belief is probably what most westerners are familiar with. It proposes that all of our actions are 'our choice'. Along with it come explanations of personal responsibility, intent, and different outcomes for seemingly similar circumstances.

Hard determinism

This belief instead makes the case that every action can be traced to its root causes and that things happen the way they do for a reason, frequently outside of the individual. Common criticisms of this perspective are the apparent lack of justification for holding people responsible for their actions (after all they couldn't have chosen to do otherwise could they?) And the seeming intuitiveness of free will.

Compatibilism

This probably just sounds like the fence sitter's opinion, but there are a number of quite brilliant philosophers who subscribe to this model. It's really more of an umbrella term which includes a large number of explanations of exactly how free will and determinism interact at the same time.



So what do you think? What are the best arguments you know for or against free will? Did you know there are people who don't believe in free will? In fact some cultures quite commonly are deterministic.

11-Sep-2021 01:21:51

Thunder Jinx
Feb Member 2010

Thunder Jinx

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There's no free will.
You can choose not to pay taxes, but then the state will send people with guns to force you to pay.
You can choose many things, but there will be outside agents forcing your "free will" to make choices you don't want to make.
Darkness rises when silence dies.

11-Sep-2021 04:46:45

Kopaka
Dec Member 2023

Kopaka

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It does sound a bit like you're confusing the will to choose from the ability to decide the consequences.

I might choose to eat cyanide, but that doesn't mean I can choose not to be affected by that choice.

I do not think this is an adequate counter argument to the concept of free will, since it does not remove the agency of the individual, simply places their agency inside a context which in many instances provides 'determined' outcomes to those choices.

If choosing to eat a burger would make me happy and choosing to eat a salad would make me sad, that doesn't mean that the choice does not involve my will just because I don't decide the outcome of each choice.



Anyway thanks for your input! I hope my response was coherent.

11-Sep-2021 05:03:04

Mr Brushie

Mr Brushie

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I think the key thing here is cause and effect.

We do in fact have free will to choose (or, not to choose, depending) whether to take any course of action. Each moment of each day we are faced with almost endless choices to make. Do I eat eggs for breakfast, or cereal? Do I skip breakfast? Do I go out for breakfast? How do I want my eggs? Which cereal? What time will I eat breakfast/lunch at? Where will I go for breakfast?

Consequence of action (or inaction) is the element we have less control over. Thunder Jinx made the comparison of choosing whether to pay taxes or not - the choice is there, regardless of whether choosing not to do so will result in the taxman knocking at your door.

So yes, we have free choice, but we do not have freedom of (or from) consequence.

11-Sep-2021 05:09:26

Kopaka
Dec Member 2023

Kopaka

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Thanks for the post!

While you do present a number of things which we do consider 'choices', how do you tell whether the 'choice' was yours to make?

At the end of the day, while it is all fine and well to say 'I could have eaten cereal, but I chose eggs', the reality is, you chose eggs. To you, it may appear obvious that the only determining factor in this action was your 'choice', but I think it is not so cut and dry.

For instance if you imagine taking 100 lab rats and monitoring their brain activity and offering them the choice between eggs and cereal, there may in fact be some observable differences between the rats who choose eggs and the ones who choose cereal.

Just because we do not have sophisticated enough means to observe the brain activity underlying the actions and thereby draw any conclusions about the causes of our choices does not necessarily mean that the choices were not caused.



Anyway thank you for the input.

11-Sep-2021 18:37:26

Mr Brushie

Mr Brushie

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I'm not sure what you're driving at.

At the end of the day, I made a choice of what to have for breakfast. My decision was no coerced or made for me. Whatever factors may have influenced my choice (do I have milk for cereal? No? Eggs it is then) is beside the point.

11-Sep-2021 21:28:55

Kopaka
Dec Member 2023

Kopaka

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Sorry I probably explained badly.


Let me make a different analogy.

If a boulder rolls down a hill, we would never think, 'Hmm, I guess that boulder just felt like rolling down the hill today!' we know that something caused it to do it. It's possible that it was teetering on the edge of rolling and all it took was a bit of wind or an animal bumping into it, or maybe a tree fell and knocked into it. Regardless of what the exact cause was, we know that inanimate objects in the real world follow physical laws of cause and effect.

Nothing ever happens randomly or by chance. (I suppose this could be debated!)

When a fire starts in the woods, something started it. Maybe there was a build-up of dry leaves and twigs and whatnot which got really hot from sunlight. I can't claim to know. But I do know that the fire didn't just up and start on its own. Something caused it.

There is nothing which happens in the inanimate physical world which has no cause.

Yet for some reason we believe that our choices are not bound by these same physical laws?

How can it be that my decision to eat eggs instead of cereal has no cause?

When something has a cause, that means that it happened instead of whatever else - we say - MIGHT have happened instead. For example, when the boulder rolls down the hill, it is doing so INSTEAD of staying on top of the hill and not rolling down it. The cause didn't offer the boulder a choice. It directly caused what happened.

And so I think it becomes very hard to believe that our actions, thoughts, beliefs, and 'choices' are somehow not caused when that is contrary to how everything else observable and testable works. Everything operates via cause and effect. Why wouldn't our choices?



It's possible to argue that it is irrelevant whether our choices are caused, because it is still 'us' choosing it, despite 'not being able to choose otherwise'.

It's a complex topic. Hard to be concise!

11-Sep-2021 22:46:42

Mr Brushie

Mr Brushie

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I mentioned cause and effect in my first post on this thread.

You seem to be conflating choice, or free will, with consequence. The boulder rolling down a hill did not choose "hmmm this is a good time to roll down this hill" and move of its own volition. However, a possible cause of the boulder rolling down hill is that someone(s) pushed it, and physics took over from there.

A random lightning bolt sparking a forest fire is not the same thing as a person choosing what to have for breakfast.

12-Sep-2021 01:43:07

Kopaka
Dec Member 2023

Kopaka

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I don't think I'm conflating consequences into it. What consequences have I referenced? I'm pointing out that the physics going on inside the brain of the person choosing to eat eggs is the same physics pulling the boulder down the hill.

You claim they are different but on what basis can you make such a claim? It sounds about as valid as saying a boulder rolling down a hill isn't the same as a tree falling over in a forest.

If they aren't the same, explain why the person choosing what to eat doesn't obey cause and effect while the boulder does?

12-Sep-2021 04:46:32

Mr Brushie

Mr Brushie

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Kopaka said :
You claim they are different but on what basis can you make such a claim? It sounds about as valid as saying a boulder rolling down a hill isn't the same as a tree falling over in a forest.


Well, that's because a boulder rolling down a hill isn't, in fact, the same as a tree falling over in a forest. The only commonalities in play regarding those two scenarios is gravity.

But I do have to admit defeat on the grounds that I literally have no idea what the hell you're even on about. You started this topic about free will, and now you're talking about brain physics.

I mean, what the f

12-Sep-2021 06:36:21

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