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I was right about Arch...

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Blak Paladin
Sep Member 2007

Blak Paladin

Posts: 185 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
So... i've seen that annoucement about a new quest involving Azzanadra and how one of the requirements is the miniquest versión of "The Vault of Shadows"... and, while i do believe the existence of the miniquest itself had already proved my point about Arch as a "way to explore the lore", the fact the miniquest version is the requirement for a new quest kind of drives the point home...

Now, i think i need some context for it:

Back when Arch was first announced, one of the points brought up by the people in charge of it was that "it was a way to further explore the lore of the game"... as if we didn't already had QUESTS for that... nevermind the 10+ years of artefact/relic/ancient stuff recovery that didn't really need a proprietary skill for it... but, when the skill finally came out, one of the main issues i had with it, was the way in which said "lore", as expected, had to be gated off to the higher levels or else it would become a little to blatant that the only reason Arch is a skill was because "schedule says new skill", with 'The Vault of Shadows' itself being an example: you can find the entrance to the vault as early as 58 because of the ice scroll... but you don't get to fully open up the vault until 107 because of the shadow scroll... and that's when i DID point out something:

This sort of "lore" can't be further explored later down any questline, even though it involves characters closely tied to some major questlines; because no quest will ever dare have any 99+ as a requirement UNLESS it's a quest specifically designed to act as a "milestone" for said hypothetical 99+ requirement

cue the release of the mini-quest versión of the Vault of Shadows which consists on you being given the scrolls needed to finish the mystery as early as 58 so you can uncover the "lore" it involves... because a quest was going to need the characters and elements of the "mystery"... and the dev's were obviously not going to make "107 arch" a requirement...

16-Feb-2021 18:24:09 - Last edited on 16-Feb-2021 18:29:26 by Blak Paladin

Blak Paladin
Sep Member 2007

Blak Paladin

Posts: 185 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Now, the reason i bring this up, is because while i'm always "in" for pointing out "called it/told you", i DO believe in listening (at least) to what people have to say and, well, that's the thing:

How do you guys/gals see this whole deal of the writers having to undermine the "skill" that "was going to be about the lore"... the moment the requirements for said lore clashed with the basic design of the part of the game that ACTUALLY uses said lore for something?

16-Feb-2021 18:33:33 - Last edited on 16-Feb-2021 18:34:24 by Blak Paladin

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Blak Paladin said :
Now, the reason i bring this up, is because while i'm always "in" for pointing out "called it/told you", i DO believe in listening (at least) to what people have to say and, well, that's the thing:

How do you guys/gals see this whole deal of the writers having to undermine the "skill" that "was going to be about the lore"... the moment the requirements for said lore clashed with the basic design of the part of the game that ACTUALLY uses said lore for something?

I'll leave it completely to the creativity of the developers as skills are no longer a valid requirement in a quest realistically.

For instance, I don't remember I have ever learned how to make a smoke bomb in the live game mode, but somehow I can make one in the quest/story mode. So note that skills in the live game and story/lore modes are not the same thing.

Another extremely obviously example is we were able to make potions in quests before the Herblore skill was even a thing. Anybody remember Cadava Berry potion in Romeo and Juliet all the way back in 2001? :D

16-Feb-2021 22:11:00 - Last edited on 16-Feb-2021 22:29:27 by Dilbert2001

KILLpavlosog
Dec Member 2023

KILLpavlosog

Posts: 4,699 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Blak Paladin said :
Now, the reason i bring this up, is because while i'm always "in" for pointing out "called it/told you", i DO believe in listening (at least) to what people have to say and, well, that's the thing:

How do you guys/gals see this whole deal of the writers having to undermine the "skill" that "was going to be about the lore"... the moment the requirements for said lore clashed with the basic design of the part of the game that ACTUALLY uses said lore for something?


Game sucks a lot, and employees do not know what they are doing. Extremely bad leadership. Scammed playerbase and ruined the economy by means of mtx. Best wishes to all.
Jagex declared WAR on April 2nd, 2012 by implementing MTX.

17-Feb-2021 07:27:09 - Last edited on 17-Feb-2021 07:28:09 by KILLpavlosog

Jan951
Dec Member 2020

Jan951

Posts: 147 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Archeology is mostly about the excevation. That in Archeology you can also discover mysteries (or miniquests) is a cool side-effect.

But may I remind you that you need a lot of skilling (115 slayer, 114 farming, 117 dungeoneering)/killing (KBD/QBD/ED1, 2, 3) to get the master quest cape?
It is not only quests that give you lore, but also other things. Archeology fits in nicely I think.

I personaly am fine with how the skill is set up.

17-Feb-2021 09:46:40

BrokenDigit
Mar Member 2023

BrokenDigit

Posts: 1,389 Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jeremy Cheng said :
I was right about arch. It was a ploy to force players to spend hundreds of mills just to get max cape back.

How does Arch cost anything? Grind it out for free and profit along the way ;)

Straying massively back on topic, imho they've tied it in nicely, they have long standing 'arcs' for example the soon to be useful Blank Observation is from 2014. Compared to Construction (grrr, brazen money sink, grr) this is a far more enjoyable skill and if they knit in some lore expansion along the way then it's a win win.

As the OP stated we have quests for lore, yet all quests have min requirements, so yup they nerfed Vault of the Shadows to retrofit, doesn't bother me in the slightest.
To be clear: started late 2005, off/on until early 2012, returned early 2019.

17-Feb-2021 12:01:44

Jennatix

Jennatix

Posts: 15 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I'm not opposed to lowering requirements so the lore can be involved in the quest, it's the only way we'll ever get to see a Daemonheim finale/saga eventually, after all.

As for it being such a high req in the first place? My guess is maybe they never planned for it to be involved in a quest, and later changed their minds, or they originally planned to have it be a soft/recommended requirement, but if that's the case I'm definitely glad they went with the route of lowering it instead.

Lore content with high reqs isn't inherently bad imo, just when it can get in the way of quest potential. I think quest content that continues the story in one way and non-quest content like Archaeology that explores the lore in a different way can coexist, even though I prefer the direct quest route. It's certainly preferable to the alternative of not including it anywhere outside of direct quests, and still only getting a couple quests a year.

19-Feb-2021 21:43:18

KILLpavlosog
Dec Member 2023

KILLpavlosog

Posts: 4,699 Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jeremy Cheng said :
I was right about arch. It was a ploy to force players to spend hundreds of mills just to get max cape back.

Wasn't that invention skill? Hopefully we get a better skill next time. I no longer wish for sailing because I don't think this group has what it takes to deliver sailing content. Need way better programmers and designers first. Best wishes to all.
Jagex declared WAR on April 2nd, 2012 by implementing MTX.

22-Feb-2021 07:48:32

Dilbert2001
Jun Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 30,176 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
KILLpavlosog said :
Jeremy Cheng said :
I was right about arch. It was a ploy to force players to spend hundreds of mills just to get max cape back.

Wasn't that invention skill? Hopefully we get a better skill next time. I no longer wish for sailing because I don't think this group has what it takes to deliver sailing content. Need way better programmers and designers first.

This group is very capable in delivering many new skills, especially with Archaeology which fuels the sizable and sustainable of the RS3 community while plenty of faltering MMORPGs don't even have skills.

22-Feb-2021 15:58:59

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