forums.rs

Forums

The Elves

Quick find code: 341-342-101-66287644

Mjambo

Mjambo

Posts: 26 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
This turned into a longer thing than it was originally, but anyhow...

So I have a list of a couple observations and questions I have on Elvish lore and history after having just completed Song of the Elves, finally finally.

Ok, point no. 1: Tolkien References
This is coming from a Tolkien fan who recently read the Silmarillion for the fifth time.
Upon entering the crystal city I was surprised to discover at least a dozen elves with names directly taken from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings precursor, The Silmarillion. Not just any elvish names, but names of the most important characters in the book, such as Ingwe, highest of the high kings of the elves, and Fingolfin, another big king guy and main character, as well as Curufin and Celegorm, sons of Feanor, Nerdanel, Earwen, Finduilas, and several others.

Ok so I was at first delighted to see these references, but as they kept popping up and I kept talking to them, and they all had the same lack of real dialogue, it started to feel less cool. Like, I get that Runescape takes a lot of inspiration from Tolkien, and this is clearly some designer making an homage to that, which I love, but does it make sense how it feels kind of disrespectful to take a full dozen names of important characters from the Tolkien world and put them walking around Priffdinas stripped of their characters besides the names? Besides the one enjoyable bit of dialogue you can have with them about "theres many ways to say hello, but 'that still only counts as one'" reference to the LOTR movies, there is no reference or similarity between the characters dialogue, appearance, or role that relates in any way to their namesakes. They're just... thrown in there without any real dialogue and the only purpose they have is to populate the city and be pickpocketed by players. It feels a little rude to me to take a main character from a story and put them in without dignity. It wouldn't be so bad if it was just one or two, with a fun dialogue...

22-Sep-2023 01:32:56 - Last edited on 22-Sep-2023 03:18:36 by Mjambo

Mjambo

Mjambo

Posts: 26 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
but when it's so many beloved character names with no reference to their source, and no real dialogue or anything, it's not a cool homage it's just kind of disrespectful. IMO. For one example, Mahtan could have been given the examine text: a master blacksmith, like his namesake, but instead Ingwe was given this. It feels thoughtless. But I guess it's hard to satisfy a Tolkien fan for detail.

Okay. Point no. 2: The little campsite of three simple forest dweller elves northeast of Prif and Gwenith. They are a friendly little group of elves who all greet you with the same "Hey! What can I do for ya' today?", which I think is a little weird but ok. I'm mostly interested in the conversation you have with their leader Rhoddwr Tan.

I think this is a very interesting and meaningful conversation which connects perfectly to one of the main themes of Song of the Elves quest; that of difficult choices. However I think it could be delivered much better. Let me explain:

You talk to Rhoddwr and he says they choose to live as one with the forest, that the forest is where they began and where they belong.
You respond, "A nice sentiment, but we can't all live off the land." This line feels awkward to me, coming from my character. It feels out of context. Why does my character think this? It is almost a fourth wall break, a line that is far more applicable to our world, the real world, than the world they are in.
Rhoddwr talks about how as civilization grows, the only option is the destruction of nature to make room, and the imbalance of civilization and nature.
The awkward wall break continues when Rhoddwr says "History shows again and again that nature points out the folly of man."
Rhoddwr is an ELF. Why is he talking about the folly of man? This makes this conversation feel out of place when it could so easily be made relevant to the quest we just completed and the creation of the city of Priffdinas.

22-Sep-2023 01:46:02 - Last edited on 22-Sep-2023 03:21:11 by Mjambo

Mjambo

Mjambo

Posts: 26 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Presumably the city of Prif has just recently been remade from the point of view of these elves. It makes sense then, that they are reflecting on the growth of their civilization and the consequent trade off, having a city where once was forest. But there is no reference to this.

So make the conversation relevant to the elves experience, instead of "the folly of man" perhaps have them talk about "the folly of those who attempt to create things out of harmony with their environment." A bit longer, but would make the line relevant to the character saying it, and would in fact be a subtle reference to the central theme of Tolkien's Silmarillion.

Ok. Point no. 3: Elves history and world building

This connects to the previous point in a way. The crystal city has just been remade, and you go in and it's a fully functioning city, which is great, but noone there really talks about how it's all new and exciting and how the war is over etc. Prif lacks general world building details like this.

On the subject, in Song of the Elves we learn more about how the elves came from a different world, brought by Seren, and they have nine clans, one of which stayed in the other world. This is a great bit of history, and I enjoyed learning what little we could about the different histories and characteristics of each clan. It was rather awkward in some cases, particularly the case of the elderly woman elf who belongs to the mining and smithing clan, and so we learn this appropriately in the quest by mining into a cave where she is just standing alone, asleep in a runite exoskeleton... which is damaged so we repair it by... hammering a runite bar onto it... while she's still standing inside it... because that's how smithing works I guess. Awkwardness aside, I loved learning these unique characteristics of each clan.

22-Sep-2023 01:57:06 - Last edited on 22-Sep-2023 03:18:02 by Mjambo

Mjambo

Mjambo

Posts: 26 Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Getting to Prif, I also appreciated how the clans were represented by the different members, but also that they weren't overly ostentatious like the dwarven companies in keldagrim. The visual unity of Prif is very nice. Still, there are many unexplained details and the histories and different characteristics of the clans are very barebones.

Finally, and I know this is a dead horse, the elves character models graphical update that came with the quest... no offence but they look so much weirder and unnecessarily complicated than they used to (now years ago). It's that the old versions were cool because they were simple, and the new ones are just too complicated and strange looking.
Finally finally, connected with the character appearance and the elves history and lore, there could certainly be more explanation of the variety of appearances among the elven characters. Differences in physical appearance and style may be related to the long history of the clans on their elven homeworld, but I haven't seen much suggesting any consistency in these choices. The beauty is in the details especially with long lived, long historied characters like elves.

The Tolkien references serve to show the thematic connection, and while I know we're not doing anything like a Tolkien remake, I think drawing from the type of detailed worldbuilding Tolkien used would be helpful, while keeping all dialogue and design feeling natural and relevant to the lore of the Runescape elves.

Song of the Elves came out in 2019 and I just finally was able to complete it. I don't want any of this to take away from my overall appreciation of the quest and the work put into it by the designers, I think it's all a fantastic job and beautifully done. I think after four years it's fair to say that the elves of Runescape are a rich and exciting story deserving of yet more detail.

22-Sep-2023 02:05:00 - Last edited on 22-Sep-2023 03:16:44 by Mjambo

Quick find code: 341-342-101-66287644 Back to Top