RuneScape Forum Archive | Abstract Theories and Concepts

Liliest

Posts: 192 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I want to create a thread that gives people the opportunity to explore abstract theories and concepts. It can be a scientific theory, philosophical ideas, theological ideas, etc.

What's most important is to express the idea with good reasoning. It might be necessary to sometimes invite people to clarify something, elaborate, or examine their reasoning. Please keep that in mind when posting here.

It's important to stick to discussing the ideas and not the people formulating them. There should be nothing personal going on here.

Let's get to it!

A truth that's told with ill intent beats all the lies you can invent.

11-Jul-2022 20:26:29

Prince Ott

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Why don't you start us off by posting your abstract theories and concepts?

This thread may run amuck and get lost in politics and religion, both, of which, are taboo.

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13-Jul-2022 10:00:53

Brigantia

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Prince Ott said :
Why don't you start us off by posting your abstract theories and concepts?

This thread may run amuck and get lost in politics and religion, both, of which, are taboo.

I second this. You're gonna have to include your own first. xd

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13-Jul-2022 11:07:28

Jan

2015

Tenebri

Posts: 39,133 Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Brigantia said :
Why don't you start us off by posting your abstract theories and concepts?

i would also agree. :L

unless you wish to discuss the theory of gravity. considering it is "just a theory"

im sure i can quote this later for when it gets heated hahahaha

but before to clarify on what a theory actually is as there is a huge misconception on what a theory is. some individuals see a theory as just an idea. which is untrue. for something to classify as a theory there actually has to be evidence for it first. and not just 'personal experience' etc. for something to be a theory its the closest to fact we have that isnt certain. which is why we have 'germ theory of disease 'the theory of gravity'
the next stage above would laws.

so to clarify further, A scientific theory is a series of statements about the causal elements for observed phenomena. A critical component of a scientific theory is that it provides explanations and predictions that can be tested

Usually, theories (in the scientific sense) are large bodies of work that are a composite of the products of many contributors over time and are substantiated by vast bodies of converging evidence. They unify and synchronize the scientific community's view and approach to a particular scientific field. For example, biology has the Theory of Evolution and cell theory, geology has plate tectonic theory, and cosmology has the Big Bang. The development of theories is a key element of the scientific method as they are used to make predictions about the world; if these predictions fail, the theory is revised. Theories are the main goal in science and no explanation can achieve a higher "rank" (contrary to the belief that "theories" become "laws" or "facts" over time).

"Theory" is a Jekyll-and-Hyde term that means different things and thus is often used in arguments based on equivocation where two different meanings of a word are used
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13-Jul-2022 20:11:32 - Last edited on 13-Jul-2022 20:28:10 by Tenebri

Philasophia

Posts: 501 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Tenebri said :
Brigantia said :
Why don't you start us off by posting your abstract theories and concepts?

i would also agree. :L

unless you wish to discuss the theory of gravity. considering it is "just a theory"

im sure i can quote this later for when it gets heated hahahaha

but before to clarify on what a theory actually is as there is a huge misconception on what a theory is. some individuals see a theory as just an idea. which is untrue. for something to classify as a theory there actually has to be evidence for it first. and not just 'personal experience' etc. for something to be a theory its the closest to fact we have that isnt certain. which is why we have 'germ theory of disease 'the theory of gravity'
the next stage above would laws.

so to clarify further, A scientific theory is a series of statements about the causal elements for observed phenomena. A critical component of a scientific theory is that it provides explanations and predictions that can be tested

Usually, theories (in the scientific sense) are large bodies of work that are a composite of the products of many contributors over time and are substantiated by vast bodies of converging evidence. They unify and synchronize the scientific community's view and approach to a particular scientific field. For example, biology has the Theory of Evolution and cell theory, geology has plate tectonic theory, and cosmology has the Big Bang. The development of theories is a key element of the scientific method as they are used to make predictions about the world; if these predictions fail, the theory is revised. Theories are the main goal in science and no explanation can achieve a higher "rank" (contrary to the belief that "theories" become "laws" or "facts" over time).

"Theory" is a Jekyll-and-Hyde term that means different things and thus is often used in arguments based on equ [/quote]

Very well said my friend. I am a light within the RuneScape forums. Not just any light, but the light of Diogenes searching for a single honest person.

14-Jul-2022 19:05:55

Philasophia

Posts: 501 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

I'll be happy to entertain an idea here...

Let's consider the philosophical idea of "eternal recurrence." This is basically the idea that what has happened will happen repeatedly for an eternity. This is an idea explored in many contexts and is interpreted both concretely and abstractly.

One concrete instantiation of this idea is "Live as if you'll have to continue reliving the consequence of your actions." This idea seems to assume a sort of compatibilism. It's like... "You can build up a set of habits which will unconsciously dictate your future actions. But be careful which habits you build into yourself." There's a quote I believe is from Dostoevsky which goes, "The second half of someone's life is made up of nothing but the habits they acquired during the first half of their life."

Let's consider this a bit more abstractly and take the "eternal" part of the idea more seriously. The dominant cosmological idea within science is that the universe began as a singularity, expanded (big bang), and will continue to expand at an accelerating rate until the eventual heat death of the universe. The evidence is in favor of our universe ending in a "big freeze"/heat death, but there's another interesting idea that has been considered and is worth considering within the context of the philosophical idea of the eternal recurrence - the big crunch. Imagine that at some point the universe stopped expanding and began contracting again towards a single point. Imagine that eventually the universe returned to the singularity and remained until the conditions were right for another big bang. Imagine the same big bang / big crunch cycle continued for an eternity, perhaps along a strict trajectory if you believe in pure determinism, and you were fated to relive your conscious experiences for an eternity. Although the science doesn't support this idea, and reality does appear to be at least in part indeterminate, this is a fun little idea to entertain. I am a light within the RuneScape forums. Not just any light, but the light of Diogenes searching for a single honest person.

14-Jul-2022 19:26:57

Liliest

Posts: 192 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Prince Ott said :
Why don't you start us off by posting your abstract theories and concepts?

This thread may run amuck and get lost in politics and religion, both, of which, are taboo.

Let's explore an issue together. Everyone else is also welcomed to comment as well. My first question is, "Should every idea be accepted or rejected according to the standards of the scientific method?"

It's often tempting to dismiss abstract ideas because they can't be tested scientifically. This becomes problematic when you hold moral systems to scientific standards as science is concerned with the causal explanation of things - it assumes a materialistic & deterministic world. This works extremely well when offering descriptions of the world but fails miserably when it comes to offering any valid prescriptions - you should / shouldn't do this. I'm hardly the first person to realize this as David Hume pointed out "You can't derive an ought from an is."

Even if you assume some degree of free will or compatibilism, this doesn't make the issue of ethics much easier. How do you justify one system of ethics over another? What makes an ethical system valid or invalid? Historically people have pointed to God or any number of institutions saying, "The Book says so and that's final." Saying such things to someone with a brain while pointing to a set of written rules simply doesn't work well however. (Rules are supposed to be guidelines representing even deeper underlying ethics.)

My answer: It's not obvious that there is a perfect system of rules or ethics which can be pointed to. What one can hope for is a system which the overwhelming majority are happy to participate in. If enough people disagree with a system, even a sizeable minority, if it is not satisfactorily updated it will be overthrown.

This isn't the correct answer to the question, merely an answer. A truth that's told with ill intent beats all the lies you can invent.

14-Jul-2022 21:15:43 - Last edited on 15-Jul-2022 00:39:37 by Liliest

Liliest

Posts: 192 Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Furthermore, even within a system in which the majority happily participate, they often do so unconsciously. An intelligent faction within the minority may consider swaying the majority to whatever alternative system they desire by making the majority conscious of more primordial elements within themselves which, if properly re-directed, may serve the ends of that faction. It may not be wise to dismiss a group simply because they comprise a small minority.

An extra bit: I added the bit about the scientific method in the beginning because people frequently, yet inappropriately, lean on the authority that science appears to offer whilst discussing matters which, at least to a large extent, exist outside the purview of science. I'm happy to have this challenged by anyone who disagrees. A truth that's told with ill intent beats all the lies you can invent.

14-Jul-2022 21:45:28 - Last edited on 14-Jul-2022 22:51:40 by Liliest

Philasophia

Posts: 501 Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile

Here's a fun one: Is the virtual world real?

What makes something real? Is consciousness real? What if you have difficulty accounting for it scientifically? And I don't mean correlating MRI scans w/ brain activity. That hardly begins to put the hard problem of consciousness to rest. I mean a satisfactory beginning to end causal explanation of how a material substrate produces something as complex as a dream, abstraction, or qualia.

It's possible that these things are emergent properties which cannot be deduced from their constituent elements. i.e. you cannot deduce wetness by breaking H2O molecules nor the nervous system. It emerges from their interaction with one another. But is wetness real? Are emotions real? Once more, is consciousness real?

Assuming you accept their reality, let's consider the reality of say... An elysian spirit shield. Let's say you happen to acquire one somehow. The idea of owning an elysian spirit shield embeds itself within your real world psyche. In fact, it might even shape your identity as a player. You might perceive yourself as having a higher in-game class than other players. Your nervous system is also affected by this. The acquisition, as well as the loss of said item, would entail real world consequences to your nervous system.

From the conceptualization of the elysian spirit shield, to the possible affects on both the identity and nervous systems of those who may acquire or lose such an item, it's conceivable that an elysian spirit shield is in some sense real.

Is money real? Bitcoin real? They're abstractions, so it might be difficult for more concrete thinkers to wrap their heads around this, but an elysian spirit shield is just as real as a $100 bill.

From this we can deduce that not only is the elysian spirit shield real, but many other aspects of various video games. This isn't "just a fantasy game." This is real life. I am a light within the RuneScape forums. Not just any light, but the light of Diogenes searching for a single honest person.

17-Jul-2022 18:30:21

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